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Mark 'Stone/Kennedy' exposed as undercover police officer‏

................ | 21.10.2010 16:57 | G8 2005 | Sheffield | World

This is a statement from a group of people who have considered Mark 'Stone' a friend for the last decade.

Mark
Mark

Mark
Mark


Mark 'Stone' has been an undercover police officer from 2000 to at least the end of 2009. We are unsure whether he is still a serving police officer or not. His real name is Mark Kennedy. Investigations into this identity revealed evidence that he has been a police officer, and a face-to-face confession has confirmed this. Mark claims that he left the police force in late 2009, and that before becoming an undercover officer he was a Metropolitan police constable.

Please pass this information on to anyone who may have been in contact with Mark in the last decade, both in the UK and abroad.

................

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Comments

Hide the following 188 comments

any proof?

21.10.2010 17:58

any proof? or just rumours?

???????????????????


Yes there is proof.

21.10.2010 18:20

Not sure what can be put up here, but can confirm that this isn't just rumour. Love to all who were close to him.

A


This is from a confession

21.10.2010 18:25

Please read the article.

This has been posted after he was confronted by his friends in the activist community and he confessed details including how long and how much he was paid. He was/is an undercover cop not just a snitch.

It is a reminder to always be vigilante and be wary of those who bring little of their background life into their activism and those who quickly want to be involved in the most 'full on' things.

However we need to remain open and welcoming to new people and not get paranoid.

It is a tricky balancing act to walk and probably nothing we will ever do will prevent open/semi-open groups being infiltrated but this should not paralyze us.

Love and solidarity to all those have taken action and shared their lives alongside this undercover cop.

Confirmed


fucking hell

21.10.2010 19:22

i cant believe its him. im sickened - i bet this scum is where the iona school raid tip off came from,???

bastard.

sickened


twat

21.10.2010 19:39

what an utter utter shit , bought this cunt a pint on a few occasions...hope his other family disown the fucker as well...Do you have a conscience mate ?

Concerned of gipton


sadly its true

21.10.2010 19:46

It's fucking gutting, but sadly it is true. Mark "Flash" Stone was confronted and admitted that he had been a serving police officer since 2000. Mark has been around a lot of movements - Earth First, anti-fascism, Dissent (you may remember him as one of the organisers of the driving teams at Stirling), was starting to get into animal rights.Its not a reason to get paranoid but it is a reason to be careful. He's by no means the first and he will not be the last. The worst thing he has done is the deep betrayal to a lot of people and the damage it has done to very good people. It does not matter how repentant he might be - fuck him.

Check out www.activistsecurity.org who have a booklet on identifying and dealing with scum like this.

FTP


jesus fucking wept

21.10.2010 19:50

This is insane. I personally don't feel compromised as he would have known about as much as the the police already know - but on a movement/scene wide level he was in a position to join a lot of dots and put people in certain places at particular times. "Another Van Cop" as a comrade remarked to me; we can only wonder how much has been dropped in terms of security due to the need for transport.

That said - responding to the comment about not trusting people who turn up and straight away want to be on the edge of legality in campaigns - i don't think anyone would treat their experience of him like that. Fuck, *look* at the bloke; what did they do, send him from Hendon to spend five years smoking rollies and living in a tent? Anyone can be made into a police asset, but an actually Police OFFICER?

fuck me.

I can't see him actually having managed to separate 2 personalities here - it boggles the mind that he's spend so long doing basically fuck all, expending so much effort in terms of debate, slow, dull legwork and campaigning - and still be thinking "aha, fooling these oh-so dangerous activists brilliantly..."
He must be a deeply conflicted individual. His life is almost certainly in tatters. Here's to hoping.

bill stickers


I'd never have believed it...

21.10.2010 19:51

Not sure what it was which caused people closer to him on a daily basis to become suspicious, investigate, and eventually question him, but he was one of the last people I'd have suspected. Just shows that our instincts and feelings are not a reliable guide in this minefield. I feel very sorry for a couple of people in particular who must be devastated at this news.

stroppyoldgit


Fucking SCUM

21.10.2010 19:56

We used to call him 'Flash' cos he had more money than the rest of us.

Now we know why.

Fucking scum.

Love to those he betrayed.

betrayed


oh shit, no!

21.10.2010 19:58

Still reeling from this. The total cunt.
Thinking mostly now of those very close to him - you have my love, solidarity and shared rage.

anon


emails to remove from lists

21.10.2010 20:08

He's on numerous email lists. We've removed him from ours

If you have
 flashwheels@yahoo.co.uk
of anything with "lumsk" in it
you should take him off.

He has also been builiding connections with activists on the European mainland, in particular in Berlin, Austria and Italy. Possibly also France and Holland. If you have contacts there please forward this news on.

Love to all those hurt by this, but it will take more than that to break us.

activists in the north of england


whats wrong with him being a copper?

21.10.2010 20:23

police arnt all bad. Some of them got my belongings back when i was burgled.
didnt see any anti-fash or climate protestors helping me out then

steve malloy


United we are stronger

21.10.2010 20:27

Being assertive and critical will only make actions for environmental and social justice stronger. It is also important to not take these acts of state repression lying down and let the 'powers that be' know that this is unacceptable and will not be taken lying down. Big love to one and all hurt by this

dan glass
mail e-mail: dan888glass@gmail.com


who has he been

21.10.2010 20:34

It is worth thinking about the fact that the cops already have other people in place for the next decade of activism in the UK.

 http://www.activistsecurity.org/Infiltrators0.3.pdf

replaced by?


Why Mark, why?

21.10.2010 20:35

Oh Mark! WHY!?

We shared a particularly brotherly experience once... or so I thought. Even though we were only really mates in passing and never hung out that much, I have held you in very high regard since that day.

Now I'm just left thinking that all the conversations we ever had were phoney, and wondering how on earth you managed to separate your double life in this way? A person I thought I knew has now vanished from existence, and is a "never was". It's actually worse than someone dying, in many ways - I'm really angry as well as mourning for a lost friend.

I don't know what your reasons would be, and I don't want to judge you for whatever you've done. Calling you "fucking scum" etc. is a bit too superficial really, and if anything, is not angry or specific enough to make any difference. I expect words like those will be water off a duck's back to you by now anyway.

Considering that I wasn't even THAT close to you, and how much this news has affected me tonight, I really feel a deep sadness for friends who I know were much closer to you than I was.

I want to live in a world based on honesty, truth, friendship and mutual respect for ourselves and our planet - just like everyone you've undoubtedly been involved in betraying over the years.

People who really care and are trying to do their little bit to make the world a better place, all betrayed, and for what purpose?

Why Mark, why would you do that?

Man Of The Woods


.

21.10.2010 20:48

"Calling you "fucking scum" etc. is a bit too superficial really, and if anything, is not angry or specific enough to make any difference"

I'm not trying to make a difference, just venting my fury at someone I thought was a mate. Those of us who got pissed with him, went climbing with him, went on actions with him, considered him a mate (and sometimes more, the sleazy bastard).... we don't have to defend our rage and betrayal!

betrayed


Do the right thing

21.10.2010 20:50

Mark if your reading this, do the honourable thing and expose the people you were working for, what operations you were involved in, how much you got paid to fuck up the lives of everyone that ever cared for you over the past 9 years.

bb


painful memories

21.10.2010 20:58

this is so sad. i was also duped by a police informer, some years ago. someone i called "dad" who i had shared many intense experiences with both as a campaigner/activist and as a human being. i don't have anything useful to say i just wanted to send out huge hugs to all those affected by this. it ripped me apart on many levels, was deeply traumatic, and even split those of us who had been the victims of this guy. hope you won't let that happen to you. much love, rage, respect, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

also spied on


More photos?

21.10.2010 21:03

If anyone has them?

@


scum of the earth

21.10.2010 21:09

fuck, and I feel violated, I hate to think about the people who were involved in organising actions with him that got busted (yes that included the Iona School Nottingham 114), the deep friends he had, never mind the people who loved him as a friend and lover. My sincerest feelings of shared betrayal, and through that, love and loyalty to all of them (& us) go out.

I can understand why 'fucking scum' had passed my lips too before I even read it here. It's actually the depth of feeling that makes those words really mean something horrible, and that was the person we once knew. If all his back problems and trips to the US were fake and excuses to go spend time with his other family, I think (& hope?) that his phases of depression were real and a result of the reality of his behaviour.

If I never see him again, it'll be too soon.

fucked


no surprise....

21.10.2010 21:15

shocked because confirmed duplicity on this scale is fundamentally incomprehensible... but not surprised

- high unearned income (no details of income/work even to those intimate with him)
- turned up out of nowhere and then suddenly knew everyone all ova europe
- no political handle - just a full-on goodtime boy - but couldn't get a sense of why he was involved?
- long and sometimes sudden absences to mystery brother abroad
- taking personal mobile to actions and meetings and not turning them off
- lack of accessibility to non-political people in his life eg old friends, family

said it quite a few times over the years that things didn't add up with Mark but what do we do when we have suspicions but no evidence? he fit all the criteria for undercover, but was involved with some very trustworthy and amazing people so... until some evidence showed up it was just bitching and a bad feeling. and we don't want to fall into patterning and normalising people like the system does, so we end up in a pretty difficult position when we feel like someone might be a cop because they don't quite fit the bill (excuse the pun).

we all have to keep secrets sometimes, but i think we know when there's something up...

mark, i am sure you are reading this, and i am really glad to be me and not to be you. fuck, man, you really fucked over some amazing, beautiful people and you know it as much as we all do... and i am glad that i don't have to live with that and i am sorry for you that you will have to live with that. we make heaven and hell here on earth - welcome to hell.

i


@steve malloy

21.10.2010 21:18

Did you ask any anti-fascists or climate campers for help first? No? Didn't think so.

ACAB


Doing the right thing

21.10.2010 21:18

Why on earth would mark do the right thing, after all as far as he is concerned he thought he was doing the right thing in working for the state..

Our movement is full of spies and infiltrators, employed by the police, by private contractors, employed by the energy companies, arms companies, etc etc.

Now lets be mature about this, and not feel betrayed when it happens, it is just how it is, we are subversives and they are not, and that is why they spy on us...

Spyspotter..
mail e-mail: leon.mats44@gmail.com


its really not always obvious and can be the last person you'd have expected

21.10.2010 21:20

just to add that the guy who spied on us - well i spent entire weekends with his son, had many dinners and nights at the pub with his wife, spent time in his home, etc.

point is - they are hard to spot, are often not the ones you suspect, and its always massively painful when truth is discovered. someone is always around to say "i told you so/i knew it" - but its never helpful.

also spied on


More than just reporting

21.10.2010 21:28

Always following the black block - and driving them. Plan B is Berlin.

140


On one hand...

21.10.2010 21:35

it's alarming that he got away with it for so long and was so deep in and so trusted.

On the other, it mustn't induce a destructive paranoia in which everybody starts to suspect everybody else. It might be that the powers of darkness are quite content for him to be outed at this stage, hoping for exactly that effect. Combined with the deep hurt and sense of betrayal many people feel, this could rip apart several important networks and activist scenes -if we let it.

So let's not let it. There's lessons to be learned from the similar devastating betrayal in CAAT a few years ago. This is a time to stay solid, care for each other, keep active, and steer a course between sensible security and irrational paranoia.

Stroppyoldgit


Re: No Surprise

21.10.2010 22:12

Couldn't agree more with what 'I' said above. This was blindingly obvious. There was circumstantial evidence longer than my arm for years and many people had been avoiding working with him and advising others to do the same. The real lesson here seems to be to trust your instincts. This police operation was sloppy as fuck and we fell for it for a decade.

Crav


Betrayed? Yes, but carry on.

21.10.2010 22:20

Easy for me to say this as I didn't know the person. But if you are, quite rightly, feeling betrayed, let down, and infiltrated, you are probably right to feel that.

But don't let those feelings stop you from being an activist. A quick search on Indymedia will show you how many actions do succeed. And we have to keep doing those actions - even if there might be an infiltrator.

Most times, there will not be, and we must keep fighting the good fight. What ever it takes.

...---...


@ crav

21.10.2010 22:45

Your 'blindingly obvious' comment is incredibly insensitive and untrue.

anon


Burn Notice

21.10.2010 23:08

Another of Mark's e-mail addresses is  markstone@o2email.co.uk .
That one goes direct to his mobile, the number for which is 07590189428 .

anon


also this email address

21.10.2010 23:20

 trailertrashheroe@yahoo.co.uk

and one that was summat like ms1969@ blah blah.

check your lists, and remove as appropriate. aktivix are already checking for any with these emails.

whats good is how much stuff DID happen despite his involvement. scum. the fall out will take time, but amazing networks of solidarity... love and rage.

doing tedious admin stuff makes you feel better, then you get another memory in your head and it feels like youve just found out all over again.

please can we stop the insensitive comments based on peoples appearance as a method to tell their trustworthiness? x

anon


....

21.10.2010 23:25

possibly hoping for too much, but really do hope that this scumbag piece of shit tops himself.. saying that, scumbags like him dont have much human feelings left so wont be holding my breath.. wish you all the worst pig! ACAB

anarchist


Biily No Mates

21.10.2010 23:26

Well, this turd has just wasted a decade of his life What a complete waste of 10 years! One day, he will realise what he has done, and will regret wasting his very existence for the sake of the state... for a payslip . . .for the oppressive system that we live next to.

What a turd, my condolences go out to those who were close to him and were fooled by him.

What this does highlight (again) is that dicks like this are among networks. Part of the furniture unfortunately, bnig bruv is scared of us and wants the inside scoop. Guess people just need to play a bit more wisely and be vigilant without being paranoid.

Little Sista


well

22.10.2010 00:44

personally i feel sick. retrospectively things make sense but theres nothing we can do now eh? maybe just be a bit more suss about people who are a bit too "flash"...

noone


The morning after the news

22.10.2010 08:02

"There was circumstantial evidence longer than my arm for years and many people had been avoiding working with him and advising others to do the same."

All I can say is that none of that reached me. Something to think about, without starting witch hunts all over. I guess I trusted the judgement of those from his area who, for good and understandable reasons, kept suspicions under their hats. We may need to re-think that.

Don't agree with "trust your instincts". Time after time, instincts in this area have turned out to be wrong and fingered an innocent person, sometimes driving them away.

We need to be more aware of objective information / discrepancies rather than "instincts". Balancing this with not tearing ourselves apart in mutual suspicion isn't easy, though. If there's something about my life / past / actvities which worries people, I hope they'd raise it with me. I could put their mind at rest. Flash Mark probably couldn't.

I don't understand how people can be saying he must now be devastated at his own treachery, might be going to top himself etc. Why? He obviously doesn't give a shit to have done this in the first place and what a great time he's had for 10 years! All the joys of the scene he's been involved in with none of the fears and risks. The only person without that sinking feeling in his stomach before a big action, I guess. It made him seem calm in a crisis (because it wasn't a crisis for him) so other people tended to view him as a sort of rock of stability in at least a couple of panicky situations.

RATCLIFFE TRIAL. Oh yes, this might well have a bearing. I'm sure its being thought about.

Stroppyoldgit


Judas pays the highest price

22.10.2010 09:02

If we are dissenting and significant then we will be infiltrated. We should bear this in mind and act appropriately at all times. As for Mark, I honestly believe the greatest harm he has done is to himself. He may well have got ten years on pay, dossing around and having a laugh (at our expense) but the real currency of life is human relationships and he's just lost a decade's worth - forever. Nobody is so cold and hard that they can remain unaffected by that.

anon


Post Mortems wont help

22.10.2010 10:04

Although its very natural I dont think any rationalisation of why he did it will help. We will never know - there is a million reasons as to why he may have done it but ultimately these dont matter. The most important thing is that he did it and we now know - there is one position worse - that he remained at large.

Solidarity with those hurt.....

Grumpy Barfin - Peoples Republic of North Dublin


did his confession reveal any specific information?

22.10.2010 10:19

My heart goes out to folk who have been fucked over by this and I'm sure this is a difficult time but it might be a good use of energy to salvage what we can in terms of information.

It would be useful for people in the networks he infiltrated to detail as best they can any information they were able to garner from him during his confession or otherwise about where these networks have been compromised.

This goes to show how important trust is.

anon


Legal options

22.10.2010 10:21

I know we're still at the shock/grieving stage, but I hope that somebody's going to look into the possibility of suing the shit out of somebody. I don't know a whole lot about the law, but what Mark did seems to me like it ought to be a breach of people's reasonable expectations of a private life.

SinkLikeAStone


Also

22.10.2010 10:26

Since nobody's said it yet, massive props to the people who sussed and confronted him.

SinkLikeAStone


Support

22.10.2010 10:43

I hope anyone who is feeling really down about this will take heart from all the messages of solidarity above. Don't let this fuck up fuck you up - nine years of being lied to and decieved will have a profound effect on those he spent time with. Get some support if you need it - please don't struggle alone.
www.activist-trauma.net

bothered of Batley.


Legal Options

22.10.2010 10:50

On the matter of legal implications: sex, consent and rape.

"A person consents if s/he agrees by choice and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice."

Click


this is strange

22.10.2010 10:53

Obviously, people have gone to some length to spread this via mail, lists and web. But the article lacks a lot of necessary information and there's no contact given to get in touch with the people who wrote it. And please, PLEASE don't ever make a first publication about a suspected informer on indymedia, where anyone can publish. Get it published on a reliable source where publihers can be held responsible for what they are distributing (morally, not legally).

anonymous


additional email adresses and phone numbers

22.10.2010 10:55

Here are two other email adresses he has used in the past four years and one mobile number

 mslondon1969@yahoo.co.uk

 flashwheels@yahoo.co.uk

+44 7765243665

from Denmark


more on undercover police

22.10.2010 11:04

Found this article today

Undercover policeman reveals how he infiltrated UK's violent activists, 14 march 2010, guardian

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/mar/14/undercover-policeman-infiltrated-violent-activists

"My role was to provide intelligence about protests and demonstrations, particularly those that had the potential to become violent," he said. "In doing so, the campaigns I was associated with lost much of their effectiveness, a factor that ultimately hastened their demise."

His deployment, which lasted from 1993 to 1997, ended amid fears that his presence and role within groups protesting about black deaths in police custody and bungled investigations into racist murders would be revealed during the public inquiry by Sir William Macpherson into the death of south London teenager Stephen Lawrence.

His decision to tell his story to the Observer provides the most detailed account of the shadowy and controversial police unit that has provided intelligence from within political and protest movements for more than four decades. He believes the public should be able to make an informed decision about whether such covert activities are necessary, given their potential to curtail legitimate protest movements.

Officer A – with a long ponytail, angry persona and willingness to be educated in the finer points of Trotskyist ideology – was never suspected by those he befriended of being a member of the Special Demonstration Squad (SDS), a secret unit within Special Branch, whose job is to prevent violent public disorder on the streets of the capital. Known as the "hairies" due to the fact that its members do not have to abide by usual police regulations about their appearance, the unit consists of 10 full-time undercover operatives who are given new identities, and provided with flats, vehicles and "cover" jobs while working in the field for up to five years at a time.

...


how to deal responsible with outings (this article doesn't)

22.10.2010 11:08

I can not tell whether the above article is spreading news or rumours. What I can tell is that if the claims made here are true then the whole approach of the article doesn't serve the cause of spreading reliable and important information about informants within our movements. Whereas if it's just an attempt to spread rumors about an activist then it's quite easy to see through - which makes it hard for me to understand why it is highlighted on the first page. This is anything but a thoughtful or responsible outing. There has been a long history of counter information tactics directed against radical movements and designed to discredit and divide people and structures. Therefore, any group with even the slightest bit of experience or reflection on the issue of outings will at least make sure to heed the following points:

- If you are suspecting someone of being an informant you have a responsibility (for the structures that person is in but also for the person itself and the effect false rumors can have on that persons activism and life) to start some serious research to either substantiate or dispel that suspicion.
- If you find your suspicions substantiated by your research you should make the facts public in order to protect radical movements and stop the person in question from causing more harm.
- Although it may not be possible or desirable to publish all the information you have about an informant or how you managed to collect information about him/her, you should be going to great length to make it transparent to others that your claims are based on facts. Don't expect people to just believe you. If we just believe and spread any claims we are making it very easy for state agencies to manipulate and damage our activities and tructures.
- An outing should be published or supported by a known group that can be contacted and held accountable for the published claims or asked questions. If you are not a known or open group yourself go find one to support your outing (if your research was any good, then this shouldn't be difficult since all radical groups have a self-interest in stopping informants. If you don't know any known or open groups then local antirepression groups are a good place to start. They can also give you advice on dealing with suspicions and doing responsible research). Of course, any supporting group needs to check the research they are asked to support and not just embrace it because the people that made it seem genuine at first glance.
- As in any useful report, make sure you answer the Five W's - Who? (Who was involved?), What? (What happened (what's the story))? Where? (Where did it take place?), When? (When did it take place?), Why? (Why did it happen?), How? (How did it happen?).

Ofcourse anyone reading an outing also has a responsibility. So, if the supposed outing basically says "This sucker is an informant. We know. We won't tell you who we are or how to get in touch. We just know, trust us, believe us. Here's some photos. Go spread the word. Trust us. We are in control." you should NOT spread this, rather help to make sure that everyone in our movements understands why it is irresponsible and damaging to spread claims that have not been substantiated.

That also goes for indymedia editors. Ok, so anyone can post on indy and that's good. What I don't understand is why the indymedia uk team decided to put this on the promoted newswire, even highlighting it. People, please learn to act responsibly - don't just rush and promote any information that may seem urgent because you might find yourself spreading disinformation designed to destroy people or movements. Or, if the indy team has reliable information that this article is based on facts rather than suspicions or sheer libel, then please go and help the authors write a useful piece of news about it.
The way it is this posting should be removed both from the promoted and from the open newswire because it may be a serious attempt to effectively destroy a persons life and activity.

commonsense


He was only doing his job!

22.10.2010 11:12

One of the comments on here suggests that we sue him for damages!

Brilliant, even when they've been utterly screwed over by the state's secret police, some 'activists' STILL think it's 'unfair' and that the law can work for them, instead. Asking the state for permission, complaining about their agents doing their job, whining about how unfair it is...

The naivety of 'careerist' activists (ie, the quite posh ones, ex-students etc; the ones who go on to run Greenpeace if the money is good) is the reason I can't any longer be involved in anything 'oppositional'. I don't want to go to prison, after all.

The inability of some people to spot an obvious copper is truly astounding - until you consider the facts: very often, 'activists' and cops speak the same language and have much more in common than, say, a cop and someone living on benefits on a sink estate, or a trendy 'activist' and a genuine career criminal. This is why it's so easy to say 'chav' or 'criminal' as an insult, but so difficult to say 'cop bastards'.

Right now some activists are thinking, 'well, maybe we can forgive him in the end, he's cleary confused, he suffers from depression', etc etc. Whereas anyone with any real experience of police brutality (ie, working class experience) will be wondering why his address hasn't been posted here, so we can sort him out properly before he gets an new ID and a new location.

The lesson? Know your enemy, and on activities that might actually make a difference work only with real friends in small, small groups, never brag or boast, and be aware of the braying careerists in your midst - they have NO IDEA how it works!

Uncle Acab


The confronters & the betrayed

22.10.2010 11:49

The confronters: As SinkLikeAStone said, I want to thank the people who finally confronted Mark with their suspicions/fears/facts. It must have taken a LOT of guts and huge sadness too, to confront an old mate with the one of worse accusations in activist movements, that of being a police informer. It's not something you'd do lightly or easily and the links on here to the guide to dealing with informers is important reading. It's too easy to go along with what everyone else believes and to stifle those nagging worries. Thank you for putting our solidarity and protection before your own desire to not rock boats and keep friendships.

The betrayed: Just want to say that, whatever else Mark is, I do believe he had genuine feelings for those he had meaningful relationships with in the last 9 years. He's a lying, worthless shit but I don't believe he could be with such beautiful, wonderful people and not feel love.

anon


no concrete evidence - indymedia editors: please remove this article

22.10.2010 12:07

Please notice that Bristol indymedia removed these articles from their website and instead published the following statement:


Article regarding undercover policeman

The recent article regarding a certain individual being an undercover policeman has been removed due to at present their being no concrete factual evidence to support this claim.

Please do not repost this article.

 http://bristol.indymedia.org/article/696056

I believe all indymedia portals should do the same and anyone who helped spread this disinformation should stop and think before they help to spread rumors next time. Otherwise you might find yourself doing the police's work yourself - without even getting paid for it (see  http://shawnewald.info/aia/sec_cointelpro.html for an overview of typical police counter intelligence tactics to spread rumors, divide and destroy radical activists and movements).

anonymous


to "commonsense"

22.10.2010 12:07

While I accept the story is still lacking in a lot of facts and that is less than desireable, a number of people in/close to indymedia have spoken to people involved in the exposure and confirmed it. The gravity of the situation warrants the promotion of this article. Part of the reason details are lacking is that there is a lot of work going into to support those who have been deeply emotionally affected by these revelations - at the moment they deserve the space to take stock. However, the bottom line is that Mark has been confronted and he has admitted he has been a serving copper.

FTP


black ops operative?

22.10.2010 12:08

Mark Stone/Kennedy was a close confidant of a senior person of the Wombles – to an extent that the impression given was that it was a relationship which was pursued to an almost conspiratorial degree (hushed conversations in corners).

Stroppy Old Git said earlier that we should take care jumping to conclusions upon acting on first instincts with newcomers into the scene (I paraphrase). While I would agree with this, with Stone, I suspected him as possibly working for some black ops outfit associated with rogue operations within the security services, from almost the first time I met him. Fortunately, not living in Nottingham, I haven’t had much dealings with him. However, I do have to say that if they were my first instincts about him, if I had been involved in any activity where he was involved, I’d have steered well clear of him (however, I admit this is easier said than done when you have no evidence – but I would certainkly have put a word in peoples’ ears so as to influence decision-making steering clear of having him informed of crucial information).

My information about the Wombles may or may not be anything, having only been involved with them at the fringes. What I will say is that the Wombles did a fine job for a while of escalating anti-terror survelliance in the scene through deliberately provocative violent insurrectionary rhetoric, not really backed up with anything part from concentrating on radical anarchist gesture activist stunts. Having evolved from a confrontational tactic at large demonstrations, the group and it’s protaganists saw themselves as some kind of Greek anarchist style vanguard against capitalism – a cut and paste reactionary direct-action ethos from a different cultural context and setting which had no interactive dynamic with any element of civil society or workers in London (though it said it did); the no-borders philosophy was at the heart of the group’s ethos (more so as time went on).


beady eye


hairy

22.10.2010 12:11

Given the things I've been hearing it sounds like Mark was a hairy - one of the officers of the special demonstration squad the special branch offshoot who focus on domestic protest movements and get away with this sort of long term infiltration. Hopefully that is him well and truly burned as an officer and we never see his face again. Given how much upset he has caused there can be no sympathy for how he is feeling. Truly, he is a dog of the bosses.

unnecessary


Re: black ops operative?

22.10.2010 12:42

"We assume that at every meeting there are at least one journalist and one Special Branch officer."
 http://www.wombles.org.uk/article200610352.php

Searcher


Serious weaknesses in activist culture

22.10.2010 12:57

As a total outsider to this scene I'd like to say that whether this allegation is true or not, either way it highlights serious weaknesses in activist culture and working methods. Ideally more evidence should have been presented, but admittedly a verbal admission on the alleged infiltrator's part could not be circulated unless it was recorded or filmed. Tricky situation, but there are some things that should remain obvious to even the dumbest activist .......

If people had their suspicions about this guy because he had no apparent source of income but loads of money, was shifty about letting people meet his family, etc, then if he was involved in serious stuff, any group worth their salts would have politely insisted he demonstrate how he came by his income by showing bank statements, credit card records, tax bills etc immediately. Any activist worth their salts would not be offended by such a request, and if he refused to play ball or the group/s concerned weren't convinced by his evidence then he should be quietly asked to leave just in case. In this day and age, if people are passionate about a cause there's plenty they can do to promote it without joining any group (it's called the internet), so while an exclusion like this might come as a blow it doesn't stop anyone working hard for their beliefs.

Instead it seems a whole network of activist groups allowed themselves to be FOOLED because this bloke was a bit of a good-time boy, liked a pint, and could be relied on to do the dog-work (in this case the driving) that SO many activists always want someone else to take responsibility for. Are British activists really that easy to sucker?

I (very slightly) considered approaching organised Anti-Fascist group/s a few years back, but made a conscious decision to go freelance instead, reasoning that if I did get involved you could safely assume at least 1 person at every meeting would be Special Branch, and that's assuming the people in the group could be guaranteed not to gossip or let you down themselves. Put it this way, SOE agent Noor Inayat Khan was grassed to the Gestapo by a member of her own group who was jealous of her good looks (no kidding). Now (as a chubby, middle aged bloke) I'm not saying I'm as attractive as Noor Khan (hey ho) but in all seriousness this thread suggests "Anti-Fascism" (presumably Antifa) has been infiltrated, and I've read stuff on-line claiming one Anti-Fascist group have been meeting self-proclaimed "ex"-EDL member Charlie Flowers - and I wonder who the fuck HE reports what he hears back to? Conclusion - both of my major misgivings about joining activist groups were proven right. As for the suggestion that this guy deserves a kicking, I think we can all see this is posted by either an idiot or a troll who wants to see the alleged infiltrator's victims jailed for assault.

Not Impressed


re: removal from bimc

22.10.2010 13:03

whilst i totoally undestand why its signed anonymous, it would be help for those who don't know who the group are to have some kind of identity, or maybe the statement can be guranteed by notts imc?

as i know the people involved i have no such need, but would deal with some of the speculation.

chris b


Further Info

22.10.2010 13:09

OK I've been in touch with the people who posted this originally re: the "How to deal responsibly with outings" comment above, and they wished to add the following:

The points raised are valid concerns.

Sorry but those closely involved are not willing to take on dealing with enquiries - as you can imagine things are incredibly hard for them right now and they're just not up for reading through everyone's comments on the subject.

The situation here is unique as far as we know because Mark was outed while he was still embedded, and had been involved not just with one campaign or group but with networks of close friends on a personal level. There's no rule book for this, and there's no one group who would have been the appropriate vehicle for verifying the research.

What happened was that someone close to Mark became suspicious. They did a little research and became more suspicious. They asked a friend to help, did further research together, and became even MORE suspicious. Both people kept this incredibly quiet, they didn't even let their partners or closest friends know they were doing this, precisely to stop any unfounded rumours starting about someone before they were absolutely sure. But all the evidence was stacking up in the same direction.

A very small group of people together did enough research to gather overwhelming, incontrovertible, documented evidence. Then six people confronted him and he confessed.

Sorry the evidence cannot be shared because it would put others at risk, but if you have doubts then try to contact Mark to ask him yourself. All known phone numbers aren't working and his profile disappeared from Facebook early yesterday.

Anyone and their granny could be made to look suspicious with circumstantial evidence. Thorough research was done here in the most covert and sensitive way, leading to A CONFESSION from Mark. This really is not rumour, much as we wish it was.

Others can help by passing on only ACCURATE information and avoiding speculation, which is what I'm trying to do here.

Hope this helps.

A well known, well networked, trusted activist


to "FTP"

22.10.2010 13:19

If a lot of people from within and around indymedia could support these claims then a statement of the indy team should by now be visible on the start page - and not a clear statement by indymedia Bristol that the articles were taken down due to the lack of any evidence to confirm these claims.

If you care about people who were close to the supposed informer then you shouldn't go around publishing anonymous rumors like this in the first place.

Even if you have no time to put more effort into this, you should be making sure that it is not published in a way that can not possibly be trusted (anonymous on indymedia and without a contact possibilty). If your claims are true and your research was thorough, then you shouldn't have a hard time to find supporting groups who will help you both with the emotional and the political side of things. The outing should be published in their name or with their support on their website or some other publication that outsiders can trust not to be fake (unlike an indymedia article).

If you are real (and you're not making it easy to believe you are), then what you are doing now is hurting radical activism in more than one sense. If your claims are true then the way you are going about this is not helping to remove a potentially dangerous individual from our structures because anyone can see that at the moment all of this is just a matter of "believe it or not". If you want people to believe something, join a religious movement. Otherwise, present facts and groups that can testify your research. Also, think: You want people to just believe you although you are providing absolutely nothing to substantiate your claims of having done good research. Now if everyone went about outings like this, no-one would be able to tell whose claims are genuine and whose are preposterous. That's why outings need to be transperent, based on evidence and be backed up by accountable groups.

Currently you are creating a precedent which, if copied by others, can be absolutely destructive for all radical movements. It has been in the past, it is in the present and it will be in the future.

commonsense


a feature article is in the works...

22.10.2010 13:32

admin


@ 'not impressed'

22.10.2010 13:40

You start your comment with "As a total outsider to this scene" and state that you've never gotten involved with any anti fascist group*. So its a bit rich that you state that people should have been able to see through it. How exactly do you know whether you would be any better at identifying infiltrators, if you've never even put yourself in the position of working with a group? You're throwing criticism around where you've no clue. You've no idea what it might be like to be in the position of the people who've been involved with this person. You've nothing constructive to say, so why say it, if you've any of the same goals as the "scene" you choose to remain outside of?

(*I've no issue with that, by the way, and can see your reasoning for making that choice.)


Spider


@trusted activist

22.10.2010 14:02

Most of what you are saying sounds reasonable. And of course the people who did the research shouldn't have to be the same people who will now "spread the word". And of course it may not be possible to disclose all information or research procedures (I already said that in my first comment).

But that is precisely the reason why known, accountable, trusted groups are needed to support claims as these, otherwise they are not only useless but dangerous.

You say that the current situation is "unique" because the person in question was involved in a number of campaings, groups and networks of friends. Actually, where I'm from that has been the case with quite a few people who were outed as informers or even police or secret service employees. I don't find this unusual. This doesn't mean that every group the person was involved in has to co-author an outing. What it does mean is that there are a number of groups and people who have a vested interest in checking the research and getting this information out. So it shouldn't be at all difficult to approach one of those groups, have them check the material and ask them to co-author or support the outing and publish it on their website, their newspaper etc. So why should none of these groups be appropriate "for verifying the research" ? Maybe none of them had insight into all activities, but then they could at least testify what they can support from their perspective and wether the research seems "overwhelming, incontrovertible, documented" to them (as you said it is).

Unless you want people to just believe anything claimed by anyone, that is the only responsible way to go about an outing and I do not see any way around it. An anonymous posting on indymedia is certainly no use (even a non-anonymous posting on indymedia since noone can tell whether those poting are who they claim to be).

So please, get in touch with groups who have an interest in checking this, have them check the material at hand and have them write a statement or co-operatively write a statement and publish it somewhere where its not as easy to spread rumors and post fakes as indymedia.



The situation here is unique as far as we know because Mark was outed while he was still embedded, and had been involved not just with one campaign or group but with networks of close friends on a personal level. There's no rule book for this, and there's no one group who would have been the appropriate vehicle for verifying the research.

What happened was that someone close to Mark became suspicious. They did a little research and became more suspicious. They asked a friend to help, did further research together, and became even MORE suspicious. Both people kept this incredibly quiet, they didn't even let their partners or closest friends know they were doing this, precisely to stop any unfounded rumours starting about someone before they were absolutely sure. But all the evidence was stacking up in the same direction.

A very small group of people together did enough research to gather overwhelming, incontrovertible, documented evidence. Then six people confronted him and he confessed.

commonsense


reply

22.10.2010 14:15

'Commonsense' - normally I'd fully agree with you, but I have to second the account given in "Further Info". In this case, I've been speaking to people who have been caught up in this and right now the concern is for protecting them as much as possible. I have dealt with infiltrators before, helping expose them as well as contributing to the activist security pamphlet on this (have heard that there should be a load at the bookfair tomorrow). However, in my judgment, at the moment the balance should be with protecting the people who are traumatized and physically shattered by what they have just gone through. This is not a "run of the mill" outing, and while it has not been ideal situation, I think that they have handled it well all considering. Anyone who has spoken to people involved in the McLibel infiltration or the Rob Gilchrist infiltration in New Zealand which bears remarkable similarities to this one knows how raw a situation is and that there are competing issues that are near impossible to balance.

A series of phone calls happened yesterday to inform people and groups and to get the message out. Sorry that this could not be done as transparently as people would like, but this is why the story is not simply being treated as disinfo. Its been barely 24 hours before all this started to kick off - give people a chance, and if people really need to know more then I find it hard to believe that our networks are not so large that we cannot find people who will corroborate this story. Once more information can be release, then it will be.

Right now, my support remains with the wonderful people who took on this headfuck of an issue.

I hope Bristol IMC re-instate this story.

FTP


@beady eye

22.10.2010 14:37

If you have any concerns about the "senior person" from the wombles then we will all be down at the Bookfair so please lets put a name to your face rather than hiding behind indymedia.

please get in contact with your allegations and evidence to:  adminwombles@hotmail.co.uk



wombles


@Spider

22.10.2010 14:44

** "You start your comment with "As a total outsider to this scene" and state that you've never gotten involved with any anti fascist group. So its a bit rich that you state that people should have been able to see through it. How exactly do you know whether you would be any better at identifying infiltrators?"

I did not claim I'd be any better at spotting infiltrators, but (with respect) yours is a non-point however, as people who say they worked with this guy for years have already said they suspected he was an infiltrator. Since they'd already spotted aspects of his behaviour that raised suspicions, and since their concerns seem to have been based on sound reasoning, logically they should have acted on those concerns. Picking me up on whether I would have done better is irrelevant - the point is that if Anti-Fascist groups handled this sort of thing better then they'd be more successful at earning the trust of outsiders, on which basis I'd argue they'd be more successful, period

** "You're throwing criticism around where you've no clue"

I'm throwing criticism on the basis of clues posted here by people who say they knew this guy for years

** "You've nothing constructive to say, so why say it"?

I have got something constructive to say, the problem is you don't seem to have fully understood it. Criticism is always constructive, even if (unlike mine) it was intended to be hostile. Like I said, I'm an outsider, so it makes no odds to me personally, but if you're in an active Anti-Fascist group then it's your group/s that need to learn from this kind of experience. If the message that goes out to the world is that your groups can be easily suckered then don't be surprised if people are reluctant to join your groups. In that respect, don't shoot the messenger (and please go away and think about that before posting any hasty response)

Not Impressed


Response to Verification Concerns

22.10.2010 14:52

Totally appreciate your concerns, commonsense, and we're hoping that the Indymedia UK collective may become the "trusted group" to verify this story. Nottingham Indymedia are also doing something on this as Mark was there a lot and they will be able to confirm the story through trusted sources.

I have asked if someone from Bristol Indymedia could contact me, but no reply yet.

From the OUTSIDE this must look completely unverified, but this really wouldn't have got this far if information had not been backed up with large numbers of phone calls behind the scenes from people who were known and trusted.

It's hard at this point to see what more we can do since the actual documents cannot be published without putting innocent parties at risk.

We're working on it. Helpful, SENSITIVE suggestions welcome.

A well known, well networked, trusted activist


Bristol Indy's position

22.10.2010 15:08

Just a point of clarification: the Bristol IndyMedia Collective have hidden a couple of articles of a similar nature to this one. We're reviewing the situation, and trying to get more information about these allegations. Depending on what happens the articles may or may not be reinstated.

Bristol indymedia person
- Homepage: http://bristol.indymedia.org/article/696056


Just in case he's reading this...

22.10.2010 15:45

...I've known Mark for about 7 years, treated him as a friend and comrade, drank with him and had a laugh with him, he bought my baby little jumpsuits when he was born and we stayed on his boat in May.

Water off a duck's back, fuck him. I've got friends and comrades that will be with me to the grave, this pussy will find that his pal's in the met would stab their granny if they thought a promotion was in it.

Rudeboy


Are there.....

22.10.2010 15:54

It may not be the time to mention it but if he has been 'under' for 9 years he will have introduced others once he had established his credibility. This tactic was mentioned in the BBC documentary.

Others


A suggestion

22.10.2010 16:05

I'm not one of those demanding documentary evidence etc.

It may be impossible to produce that, as has been said, without putting other people at risk. Any chance of "redacting" it (I hate that word, it's normally a guilty bureaucrat or evasive politician's euphemism) so that the innocent are protected but the doubters can be satisfied?

Might not be, of course.. Just a thought.

Stroppyoldgit


@ 'commonsense'

22.10.2010 16:09

To Commonsense: You raised some excellent points, one of them being that an outing can be a tool to divide us.

But since that's true, then it follows that there isn't a way which would be "the only responsible way to go about an outing" as you claim. Because as soon as that way is used, it becomes available to the cops to use for a deliberately false outing.

In this light, your assertion that "...there are a number of groups and people who have a vested interest in checking the research and getting this information out", takes on a whole new meaning, does it not?

I agree that a statement on indymedia isn't inherently 'secure' in the sense of 'verifiable', but why would I believe one from a group? Is it telling that you don't list any specific groups - is this because in naming them they'd become less secure?

I'm not disagreeing with your main point. I'm just disagreeing with the slightly strident tone which started to gain ground in your posts, an assumption that it should be obvious to everyone what to do - for example when you say:

"...it shouldn't be at all difficult to approach one of those groups, have them check the material and ask them to co-author or support the outing and publish it on their website, their newspaper etc. ... Unless you want people to just believe anything claimed by anyone, that is the only responsible way to go about an outing and I do not see any way around it."

I hope that I've respectfully pointed out a downside to your suggestion, even if not a 'way around it'.

It seems to me that wherever we hear an allegation, or have suspicions, we are always going to have a delicate balance to strike: each of us needs to reserve judgement - 'it might not be true' - while exercising caution - 'how can I protect myself and others in case it IS true?'. Usually, it seems to me, we just have to live with, and act on, both - simultaneously. As difficult as it is necessary.

Meanwhile, it's also worth remembering that there are other ways that people can be untrustworthy (i.e. other than being cops) and yet end up involved. Which means that sometimes people can do shit things when they are otherwise a respected activist, and sometimes false allegations can flare up against people who, while not being perfect, end up as scapegoats. Discussions on how to act responsibly around these situations have been going on in Bristol for a number of reasons, which might be one context for why BIM pulled the story. But it's absolutely not exclusive to there, nor will it ever stop being an issue everywhere.

Massive love and solidarity for those who have had to take extremely difficult action on this. Well done and thank you for your courage. Thank you too to those who have posted wise comments on this site about not letting these realities destroy the good things, not least our courage to love as well as confront. Sad, sad days; onwards in hope.

Tricky Balance


Thanks for suggestion

22.10.2010 16:30

Stroppyoldgit - thanks for the suggestion, we are considering doing that and are still undecided. We think that it might just start speculation about the possibility of the documents having been photoshopped (altered/forged), which would just lead to more rounds of "yes it is/no it isn't".

Right now it would also mean more work for the people most closely involved, so holding fire until they've had a chance to at least get some sleep.

Best "proof" right now seems to be that he has disappeared, and if people follow their own chains of trusted people then they may be able to verify that for themselves.

Your help much appreciated though.

A well known, well networked, trusted activist


Nottingham Indymedia Confirmation

22.10.2010 16:33

"The Notts Indymedia collective can confirm that the following information is correct..."  https://nottingham.indymedia.org.uk/articles/611

A well known, well networked, trusted activist


Bristol republish

22.10.2010 16:35

Following discussion on our lists, and notably the Nottingham Indymedia feature
 http://nottingham.indymedia.org.uk/articles/611

Bristol Indymedia have republished this story on our newswire
 http://bristol.indymedia.org/article/696047

Bristol IMC person
- Homepage: http://bristol.indymedia.org


"He lost all his friends, you, everyone ... We have to make ends meet."

22.10.2010 16:48

 http://www.markthomasinfo.com/section_writing/default.asp?id=30

Here you are Stone or Kennedy, this is what you will go through and I hope your family suffers so that it brings home to you what a low-life you are, you slimy conniving oiece of shit.

You spent years being false and I hope your 30 pieces of silver are enough to buy the rope when you decide to follow the example of Judas.

And I'm sure your reading this, once a Secret Policeman, always a Secret Policeman.

octavist


Infiltrators, Informers and Grasses how, why and what to do

22.10.2010 16:58

activistsecurity.org
- Homepage: http://www.activistsecurity.org/Infiltrators0.3.pdf


I was his housemate for years

22.10.2010 17:16

...and yes, he did treat the place like a hotel, spending most of his time working in London. Yes, we did take the piss out of him over it.

Now we know why.

Those who say on here that they suspected him all along should bear in mind that their comments might hurt and upset those who thought that Mark was annoying and smug at times, but had no such suspicions.

Basically, there's no point in sneering after the event. We need to stick together as a community, move on and learn from this.

R


It won't stop us

22.10.2010 17:37

As long as there is oppression and injustice, people will always be motivated to resist it. One undercover cop won't change that. There are more of us than there are of them.

Panda


Darby case: similarites?

22.10.2010 18:04

If we want to learn from this incident this is a story about another recently 'outed' infiltrator whom we can learn from. Brendon Darby is a different man in a very different country. The amount of violence he used and his extremely disruptive behaviour would not have been possible in UK activism I think. However there are some aspects of Darby's story which may have been similar. Mark had quite a bit of personal charisma and charm for example.
 http://breakallchains.blogspot.com/2010/03/lisa-fithian-fbi-informant-brandon.html

140


experience with mark

22.10.2010 18:22

after seeing mark at various action camps, and taking him up on many offers to drive things all over the place, i had trusted him pretty much. he told me he had a crew ready to drive all over europe to do direct action, especially to confront nazis with serious action. i thought he was opening the doors to doing serious direct and/or violent actions. i never took him up on the idea.

another time after a night out of really getting wasted drunk, he wanted to go with me to a brothel. i found that a bit surprising for such a "pc" and pro-feminist guy. maybe his contact with me tapered off after i turned him down on that offer.

another odd thing about him was that although he often talked of radical action (he actually did do a lot, including in Iceland), he never wanted to use pgp or encrytion.

another time, he told me he was being followed all over by cops. was this to make me paranoid? or was it to check out my reaction?

what we need to do is just be aware that this kind of thing will always happen. i never trust anyone 100%. at the same time, we need to keep going, and not be afraid because of shit like this.

ok now, back to the barricades.
>:)

not the first time...we will keep fighting!


Why are our names being brought into this? Why are saying that about Charlie?

22.10.2010 19:28

Why are you bringing our names into this and why say that about Charlie?

Whatever the ins and outs of Mark Stone being a cop which hasn't been proved on here I think it's wrong to suggest that Charlie Flowers is some kind of informant or policeman. The meet between Camden Antifash and Charlie Flowers was productive in keeping things peaceful in Camden. People have opposing views on some things and agree on some things. The people that have supported Camden Antifash are from mixed backgrounds, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Atheists White, Black, Brown etc. We all agree that racism is wrong and we also agree that racist or religious extremism is damaging and needs to be stopped. There is nothing wrong with being patriotic and it doesn't make someone racist. There are younger people linked to Camden Antifash of different racial backgrounds and immigrant backgrounds who are patriotic about being English or whatever and are also proud of being Jewish or Muslim etc. When people get to meet they can find that they have things in commonrather than not.

Charlie Flowers did a fine job of stopping a potentially stupid situation from occurring in Camden. He is not the fucking police and neither are we. If people have something to say to any of us then meet and talk to us.

Camden Antifash
mail e-mail: camdenantifash@yahoo.co.uk


Timing not good

22.10.2010 19:38

It's a bit unfortunate this broke 2 days before @ Bookfair. That event, for all it's merits, can be to a common or garden rumour mill as a concrete crusher is to wee pepper grinder.

All efforts to keep the bollocks within bounds, avoid mad paranoia and ill-founded accusations, and limit the inevitable discussion to the few facts we know will be good work done.

After that, we can set about demolishing the olympic stadium with a toothpick.

Stroppyoldgit


common sense?

22.10.2010 19:40

what has been written on several pages, in indymedia comments and on lists by now has persuaded me that this outing is genuine. I hope that my later comments did not offend those directly affected or seem as if I was not in solidarity with them. I also agree with "TrickyBalance" that my comments became increasingly strident and that this isn't at all helpful. I was indeed quite angry at what appeared to me as an unjustifiable lax handling of the responsibilities connected with an outing, and the first answers which I did notice were very thoughtful but seemed to me to be evading some points I brought up which made me even more angry. As someone who is not involved it should have been me who could have been expected to act more calmly. I am afraid my anger about how easily rumors are often spread within our structures and how destructive this can be for our movements and many individuals involved got the better of me. Thanks to everyone who answered my comments and remained calm (and especially to "FTP" and "trusted activist" for your commitment to clarify the situation.

In my first, still calm comment I tried to bring up a number of tips for outings that I continue to believe are important to bear in mind when dealing with such a situation.

One of the main ones being that when publishing an outing it is important to make as much of your research methods and evidence transparent as seems possible(!), publish it in a medium that is not easily manipulated and - if you are not one yourself - get known, trusted and reachable groups to support your claims after having checked the evidence. All of these points are important to establish some kind credibility and accountability so that those of us who were not directly involved in the events can see that those publishing the outing have tried what they could to dispell notions of fake or counter information or manipulation. While I do think trust is an important (and underestimated) quality in emancipatory movements lets not expect people to simply take our word for everything - especially if its something as controversial, difficult and historically abused as an outing.

I agree with "TrickyBalance" that confronted with an outing we will always have to strike a balance between the possibility that it is a fake and the necessity to protect ourselves, our friends and structures. I too believe that it will hardly ever be possible to dispell all and provide 100% certainty and transparency for outsiders. However, I do believe that there are levels of certainty and that radical emancipatory movements we should attempt to reach the highest possible degree. Of course I can not (and will not) be absolutely sure that a statement issued by a known group or organisation has a higher validy than an anonymous posting on indymedia, BUT it will make it much easier for me to judge whether to give a statement the benefit of the doubt (i.e. because known groups can be held accountable, have a reputation to lose, will have good or bad references in their past etc.). I maintain that it would have greatly helped if this had been considered from the beginning. Btw: I did not list any specific groups because I am reading and writing from germany, am not directly involved in the events surrounding the outing and in the british political "scene" and yes, because I believe the research group would know best which groups to approach. However, as I said (at least in germany) if you don't know who else to approach, there is always anti repression structures who consider it part of their activity to support people and groups having to deal with spy/informer suspicions.

Also, I didn't mean to suggest that everything should be perfectly obvious in every case. In every outing there will be individual and specific difficulties to tackle for which you'll find no textbook references. However, I am positive that we can learn from the past and draw conclusions which will be of general use in the future such as those in the last paragraph. And I am also positive that not every strategy we publish can be turned against us. I.e. if we make it "a rule" that outings should be published or backed up by accountable groups this will still not make it easier for state agencies to spread fake accusations but harder because it will mean that they have to infiltrate a group, present material to it and convice it of its claims before they will be published whereas rumors wouldn't get them anywhere. I agree with you that this should be an ongoing debate in which we will never find a perfect solution but we should try our best to stop rumors and false accusations and help others who have good reasons to not just take anyones word believe us when we know that what we are trying to get accross is the truth. In this respect I believe that indymedia Bristol acted very responsible by taking the outing articles off their site until they had verification of the claims by trusted sources.

Finally, we are not perfect and we need not try to appear so. We will continue to make mistakes and that's ok. What made me angry wasn't the fact that things hadn't gone according to "textbook" but that for quite a while it seemed to me that the problematic side of any outing, the possibilty that accusations can be part of a counter information strategy, was dealt with very lightheartedly and that central points were not addressed by those who wrote otherwise thoughtful comments. After dicussing with you people I no longer have this impression

Ok, 'nuff said. Love and solidarity to everyone effected or distressed by these findings.
Find comfort in your friends, courage in the depth of your relationships and the passion of our struggles.

commonsense


How the police operate and a silver lining

22.10.2010 20:31

For more on how these people operate read this from The Observer

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/mar/14/undercover-police-far-left-secret

As far as a silver lining goes, deployment of an undercover officer, as opposed to just an informer, represents a significant use of assets by the police.

There are unlikely to be two of these chaps in close proximity, so if you were infiltrated by Mark, rejoice! You are as near certain as you can be that you have not been infiltrated any further, so put the paranoia behind out and go and do something great.

Martin Porter
mail e-mail: thesnufkin@sky.com
- Homepage: http://www.thesnufkin.blogspot.com


cops trust and love

22.10.2010 20:41

before i got active i knew a nice person who sometime later became a cop.

At my first jaunt into direct action, i saw them fleetingly at eco village g8 scotland and thought no it can't be.... . it has troubled me since. i really hope and wish they are not 'deep' and fucking up friends in groups.

what can we do about this? as a 'newby' i did feel a little excluded and understood the need for security but have had to make the call to take the risk in afinity actions. rather get fucked up trusting than parinoid do nothing.

shuuuush!


another mobile number...

22.10.2010 21:28

... was +447590189428. honeypotted in germany.

...


He confessed when confronted? Big surprise there.

22.10.2010 23:23

"What happened was that someone close to Mark became suspicious. They did a little research and became more suspicious. They asked a friend to help, did further research together, and became even MORE suspicious. Both people kept this incredibly quiet, they didn't even let their partners or closest friends know they were doing this, precisely to stop any unfounded rumours starting about someone before they were absolutely sure. But all the evidence was stacking up in the same direction.

A very small group of people together did enough research to gather overwhelming, incontrovertible, documented evidence. Then six people confronted him and he confessed."

I think that by law, any undercover cop must admit that they are a police officer when asked that question directly. So, um, why didn't you just ask him in the first place?

This might sound like a dumb question to ask but given that there are pamphlets, manuals etc. being written about how to out an undercover cop, it would seem like a more direct way to go about things. If it works.

Just a thought...

Juniper Berry


undercover cops in Italy

23.10.2010 03:32

acab


Tuniper

23.10.2010 05:13

You've been watching too many US cop shows! Theres way too many smart arses on this thread. Why don't those of you who didn't even know this guy just butt out for a while?

Bunny


more info please

23.10.2010 08:53

As People who had him popping up in our structures the last few years around Europe might be glad the read some more *factual* information. Do you have any? Was this miserable guy questioned, and if so what were his answers? What was his task? Who was he working for? Was he giving detailed information on every action he joined, and if so how and to whom? How was this while abroad (G8 Heiligendmm, for one!) This kind of information would be helpful to us to understand the situation, to repair damage, warn people etc.

dissent-abroad


Juniper's point

23.10.2010 11:54

Juniper Berry writes above , “I think that by law, any undercover cop must admit that they are a police officer when asked that question directly. So, um, why didn't you just ask him in the first place”

Perhaps the reason is that nobody knew that an undercover cop had to admit to be being a police officer if asked directly. Are you sure that is the case ,JB ? If it is true , left wing groups should make it a point to formally ask anybody wanting to join their organisation[s] whether or not he or she is a police officer.

tom
- Homepage: http://tomeile@hotmail.co.uk


Response to "More Info Please"

23.10.2010 12:19

As I understand it, anything further that he might have said was considered so unreliable that it's really not useful to anyone, sorry. Maybe worth thinking about whether he introduced you to anyone else, but beyond that I don't think there's any further info that wasn't later contradicted or obviously untrue.

A well known, well networked, trusted activist


EDIT: Response to "More Info Please"

23.10.2010 12:26

Oops I can't edit that comment, I don't mean that there was any info that he had introduced anyone else, just that it's something you should consider.

A well known, well networked, trusted activist


Asking Nicely

23.10.2010 12:28

QUOTE “I think that by law, any undercover cop must admit that they are a police officer when asked that question directly."

Sorry, simply not true. They can tell any lies they like. If only it were that simple.

A well known, well networked, trusted activist


Groups that endorse this statement

23.10.2010 14:30

Following a meeting at the anarchist bookfair where the evidence was explained and discussed in detail the following groups are convinced enough to endorse the original statement regarding Mark Stone/Kenndy

scottish activist legal project
now or never
nottingham indymedia
anarchist teapot
NETCU watch www.netcu.wordpress.com
Activist security.org
CEntral Animal Liberation Intelligence Unit
Veggies
uk actionmedics

somebody


He Who Laughs Last Laughs Best

23.10.2010 16:09

@ 22.10.2010 18:51 - The wiki to the name you signed that animated GIF with should be quite intructive for the readers of this site:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udo_Voigt

Are you suggesting that the leadership of the German nazi party is choking on their popcorn over this report of human trauma? Apparently the news have not yet spread to each and every island along European shores that now for more than a decade the German supreme court has unsuccessfully been trying to ban it because there are more undercover agents in the leadership than selfmade nazis. It is an open secret that the main purpose of the current nazi party is to provide secret police with an excuse for the vast expenses it is extorting from the public budget. Without that you would be broke already, so your schadenfreude towards neighbouring countries nonwithstanding, the grain of truth which should be added to that is if there ever was such a thing as a theme park for evil infiltrators it clearly is the NPD/VS!

A.N.T.I.F.A.


still: more info please

23.10.2010 18:16

Yes, I wasn't asking to pass on what he told you, of course that would need to be checked first, but you must know more than what is given to us now, you say people have done research, so then let us know what came out of that. who was he working for, what kind of info was he passing on, how, to whom, also abroad, etc? Is anyone working on trying to make a full overview of that kind of information? If so, where can we find that? A report from the meeting on the a-bookfair?

abroad


yes , more info needed

23.10.2010 18:53

I agree with the previous poster . At least an outline of the scope of Stone's activities should be possible without jeopardizing legitimate concerns about getting the facts straight before releasing a report. .Campaigns need to be alerted about possible breaches of security.

There was a post to indymedia ireland today from somebody who said that Stone/Kennedy had "visited Ireland on a couple of occasions". The post didn't say whether Stone was involved with any campaigns while in Ireland ,but that was the poster's implication I thought

tom


More info

23.10.2010 19:36

Bit confused at the people asking for more info above.

"who was he working for," - The police. That's what this article is about.
"what kind of info was he passing on," - Info about activists. That's what this article is about.
"how," - We may never know, but does 'how' matter? The fact that info was being passed on is the main thing.
"to whom," - The police. That's what this article is about.
"also abroad," - No reason why not.
"etc?" - You might need to be more specific.
"Stone/Kennedy had "visited Ireland on a couple of occasions". The post didn't say whether Stone was involved with any campaigns" - I think that's a question for people running campaigns in Ireland to answer.

It strikes me that the point of the original article was to alert activists that Mark S/K was a proven informer. It was not to find out everything that he was involved in. That is the task of individual groups now armed with the knowledge of his betrayal.

=


@ more info

23.10.2010 21:11

Please stop shouting at people asking for more info like they are stupid children. If you think details don't matter in these cases, fine, go along randomly fighting 'the system' (and 'the police'). I was hoping to hear some details so to lear lessons about which institutions are doing what exactly, what instructions do they give, how is the information transmitted etc. In fact the only question was (and this could easily be answered: are people seriously investigating this case and will they come with some reporting or someting (and if so where and when)? That's not too difficult, is it?

abroad


what strikes me most...

23.10.2010 21:56


... is why there is still no mailadress of any group or collective to share more information?

or to get organized with them to become an overview of countries/ spectrums/ protests this man was involved in.

so, does the lack of contact adress mean that there is still no (spontaneus) collective dealing with it?

...


Police and the law

23.10.2010 22:42

"I think that by law, any undercover cop must admit that they are a police officer when asked that question directly. So, um, why didn't you just ask him in the first place? "

What law? This is bollocks-round-a-fire legalism. If you can cite the statute or authority, fine. If not, there is no point in mentioning it.

If there is such a law, the police will, of course, obey it, won't they? And I'm the Archbishop of Canterbury, so I should know.

As for "how many people are in prison because of this guy". Probably none. Information to make arrests and get convictions is not the only purpose of infiltration, and would usually be by a much lower (and cheaper) level of infiltration than this. It's often impossible without the source being sussed and expended. Information for, and implementation of, political, social, tactical or even strategic disruption is the more likely object of this sort of deep infiltration.

Stroppyoldgit


Don't Be Dumb, Be Patient

23.10.2010 23:09

The people dealing with this affair are undergoing a massive traumatic occasion that of course they are aware has huge implications not least for themselves but for the wider movement. Just be patient on more info and evaluation. Expecting a cohesive, packaged answer to how, why and who at this present moment is just being insensitive. This affair is less than a week old - give everyone time to come to terms with at least the most basic outing of a cop in their midst before they can even begin to put further practical actions into effect.

@


also confirming story

24.10.2010 01:04

Also confirming the original statement, after having been presented and reviewed the info about this case at the above mentioned meeting, is the Earth First! Action Update collective.

As to the comments below that:
the info they were given was by the undercover cop, therefore cannot be relied on, so there's no point in giving any further out beyond confirming his employer, and there would be dangers in so doing; this article, personal contacts and others are alerting campaigns people know he was involved with, if you know others - let them know yourself; you just have to take it on personal trust, accept it now there are many groups who have endorsed the statement (& contact them if you really must) or just have some respect and sensitivity.

EF! Action Update collective


Be patient, be calm, be cautious, be quiet...

24.10.2010 03:18

I second what the above two parties said. This story sadly is true, but please consider that it is one with many implications.

Personally - People are distraught, distrustful, in shock, and in mourning of a friend who is as now good as dead to them - but also feeling terribly, terribly betrayed. Some people regarded this man as a lover, best mate, 'brother', or boyfriend. Some of these intimate relationships extend back over several years, some to when he first got involved at the Sumac. Right now, people are trying to get over this trauma still, so please, give people their distance whilst they put everything together, and trust those that have had some contact with people directly involved that they are passing on accurate information. A face to face confession relayed by multiple reliable people who were 'close' to Mark is good enough. This is one of the deepest, darkest forms of betrayal imaginable. If you have ever been cheated on by a partner, and perhaps stolen from, and realised you were used all the way through the relationship... then you STILL will only have the smallest idea what his former "friends" and more are going through. Would you pester a rape victim immediately once the rapist had been caught and could do no more harm? Or would you give them time to adjust and process things before forcing them to testify?

Politically - For the movements concerned it has much wider implications, as people consider what kind of things may have let slip, how much damage Mark has been able to do in his time undercover. This kind of stuff needs days, weeks, months, even years to put the pieces together, so you can't expect everything immediately. Each movement will individually have to discuss what has happened.

Legally - Revealing too much information about interactions with Mark may be dangerous. It may be that Mark did not pass everything he was witness to on, or it may be that he did, but there was not always enough evidence to convict. Please, everyone here be very careful about what you reveal. Just because Mark knew about x y or z does not automatically mean that the police have been informed, taken note of it, or had enough evidence to convict for it. I am sure many people are just curious, but remember some commentators here could be police operatives trying to find out what we know.

So be careful you do not give too much away! Just as the police won't discuss too much once their cover has been blown, nor should we!

a sideliner


Just an idea...

24.10.2010 10:51

Solidarity to all people involved in this sad story.

But the most important thing is to learn for the future. Perhaps in the near future you are able to let us know the useful informations about this case. I don´t want to know the name of the groups with contacts to him but I want to know:

How did this asshole works as an cop? Don´t write about other groups, just concentrate on him!

Perhaps the result could be a new brochure about snitsches.

Because in the past there is a lot of sneaking suspicion against innocents meanwhile the snitches perhaps are the well estableshed comrades.

Anarchist solidarity worldwide


Nottingham

24.10.2010 11:09

I appreciate the problems of presenting a truthful and accurate report in a way that doesn’t give information away to the state or further divide the movements Stone infiltrated ..People who were close to Stone are entitled to feel violated and betrayed , but there are security concerns for the wider activist community - in Britain and possibly abroad - that need to be addressed quickly. Rumours will inevitably circulate in the absence of accurate and verifiable information.

A poster writes that the people directly involved are traumatized. If that is the case ,they should listen to the advice of people from outside their immediate area who have not been personally traumatized. I imagine that there would be no shortage of sympathetic volunteers willing and able to help Nottingham out .

There needs to be an interim statement giving as many established facts as can be published – issued by people prepared to use their real names if possible. There should also be a contact address for those groups and individuals who have concerns over their own security or who have information to pass on about Stone.

The best way for Nottingham activists to get over Stone is for them to initiate an investigation into the last nine years , take statements , establish the full extent of Stone’s activities and learn lessons to pass on to the wider activist community.

Very best wishes and solidarity to Nottingham activists , Tomeile ,Dublin .

tom


Our confirmation

24.10.2010 13:30

The above suggestion has been followed up in the new feature at  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/10/466705.html which refers to 'Activist Security Advice: Infiltrators, Informers and Grasses how, why and what to do if your group is targeted' from activistsecurity.org and 'Informants, Infiltrators & Provocateurs' from security.resist.ca


We ourselves were recently saddened and bereaved by the loss of a good friend and comrade who gave active support and encouragement in our work. Sadly the post mortem seemed to suggest that he suffered some kind of 'multiple personality disorder'; but it was worse - it turned out instead that he actually had an evil twin called Mark Kennedy. I am sure you can imagine the pain and distress this has caused, and more so to those that were even closer to him, to whom we send our warmest love and respect. Thank you for giving us all space to move on.

We are grateful simply to have been informed so that we can review our procedures and cross his name out of phone books and email lists.

We don't need to know more or to dwell on the matter, as we have far too much to do in our continued campaigning

Billions continue to die from humankind's addiction to animal products, which also results, along with other impacts of greed, consumerism and the capitalist system, in millions dying from hunger and drought, exacerbated by climate change, which is already killing thousands, and is set to become so much worse.

Our ex-friend knows who we are and what we do, but as we are 'just the caterers' to the movements that we support, we are happy to put a name to this posting.

Others may not be able to say who they are, but anyone can refer to the evolving list of 'groups that endorse this statement' at  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/10/466576.html

In our case a simple search for the single word 'Veggies' will confirm who we are.

Pat at Veggies

Pat
- Homepage: http://vwww.veggies.org.uk


For groups supporting the statement

24.10.2010 13:50

Can groups wishing to endorse the statement ensure that as well as posting on this thread they do so on the thread at  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/10/466576.html The importance of this is so that people who want to check the veracity of the story can see who in the wider movement can see who is backing this up, see the numbers adding credence to it, and if necessary get in contact with them to confirm.

I think it is understood that more information would be good. However, a decision has been taken, and that should be respected at this point in time. The collective that came together to investigate and expose a close friend need time to themselves right now. As was said at the meeting at the bookfair, this is all they are able to give. That this may be frustrating is understood, but that is the way it has to be. There was no formal group to issue the statement because it was not done by one, but by a group of people not in a position to answer every query.

There is no way to know all that Mark was involved in - there is after all a lot of necessary secrecy. His image is now out there and thus it is down to people to spread it and to take action themselves to deal with any breaches in security that may have resulted from this.

There will always be cops around - that neither makes this less traumatic. Nor should it be a case of "I told you so" - though that appears to be just the usual IMC trolls. Yes, people may have had their doubts, but in the absence of hard proof then voicing them publicly would have just been malicious rumour spreading. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, yet in the end it is not for blaming anyone, but rather for learning from. The balance is a tricky one to make and Mark was in for a long time. Getting every copper is not a trivial thing to do, especially when they are prepared to commit crimes to further their cover story.

To "commonsense" - respect.

FTP


It's trivial not to try

24.10.2010 15:17

I've asked for legal advice if this articles comments implications could be prosecuted as rape under Scottish or English or European law or how the various legal systems view the other activities.

"Because in the past there is a lot of sneaking suspicion against innocents meanwhile the snitches perhaps are the well estableshed comrades" - Anarchist solidarity worldwide

Yup, and Indymedia isn't immune from that. The reasons the elite control mainstream media are obvious and also apply to independent media, as rule is always based on opinion.

"Getting every copper is not a trivial thing to do, especially when they are prepared to commit crimes to further their cover story" - FTP

That sounds like bluster since getting even one copper is in fact a huge event. I emailed FTP about an informer inside Indymedia and FTP never investigated, not that I'm impugning FTP except as a poor citizen journalist for someone claiming to be interested in 'getting every copper'. The lack of a proper investigation by IM does impugn the whole structure though in terms of it's security and for groups who use it. I have since been 'exposed' as a 'police mole' on various US and European Indymedia, and yet I'm not allowed a proper right to reply even though I have proof my accuser is an informer themselves. Proof that IM haven't bothered to investigate. That isn't a problem with the informer, every group factors them in, that is a problem with the genuine activists failing to be sensible enough.

I write as someone who has been 'exposed' as a police imformer on Indymedia, while simultaneously suffered from police raids due to terrorist allegations quoting an Indymedia informer. I would advise anyone who lurks considering activism to go ahead without contact with other groups and without recruiting beyond your own social circle. You can read the techniques of successful other groups actions without any need to contact them. Even then, bear in mind that an office affair is always a risky thing, to be discouraged, but especially in activism where innocents are inevitably exposed to professional liars.

messy


re: Messy

24.10.2010 16:17

FTP is not ftp.

ftp


Do ask, do tell

24.10.2010 16:46

"FTP is not ftp"
I dunno if I understand that correctly. Fucking treacherous pseudonymns.

Anyway, Juniper Berry suggested just asking if people are undercover, which is utterly daft but leads to a good point. The undercovers I've known have refused offers of lie-detector tests, so why not buy or make the necessary kit and learn how to use it within one or two different groups, that offer it as a service to other groups or individuals. Lie detection is not proof, but it is indicative, so that's why they avoid it, and it could resolve a lot of disputes or claims that are just misunderstandings.

messy


explanation

24.10.2010 18:20

> > "FTP is not ftp"
> I dunno if I understand that correctly. Fucking treacherous pseudonymns.

What it means it that the person who uses the pseudonym "ftp" involved in indymedia is not the same person who has been posting here as "FTP" answering people's concerns about the Mark Stone affair.

anon


I think that's it

24.10.2010 18:23

The people seeking "proof", further information and details are unlikely ever to get any, and we all just have to accept that.

The media will almost certainly be crawling all over this story very soon, if they aren't already. There are people who're almost certainly innocent and unconnected with our scenes involved in the nasty double-life mess created by "Flash". Having had the trail which led to his discovery explained at the @ Bookfair meeting (without details), there is no way any of those details can be revealed, documents produced etc. without bringing the media shit circus down on their heads. Those who know the details aren't prepared to do that. I support them in that decision and I hope everyone else does, too. End of, I think.

As for what "Flash" said about his activities, other infiltrators etc., those are the words of a proven liar and deceiver, so giving such unreliable information any currency would only do further damage. Only one name was mentioned as a fellow infiltrator, apparently, and that was someone who was around relatively briefly, was suspected, and disappeared completely some time ago. Those who had contact with that person (which I didn't) know who it was, aren't surprised, and the sudden disappearance says it all, really.

We will not be seeing either of them again. The point is not to pick over the bones of this one obsessively, and put others at risk by doing so, but to learn the lessons for the future.

Stroppyoldgit


Who was the other named informer?

24.10.2010 19:18

Is it possible to please find out who the person was that Mark named as a fellow undercover? If they are no longer around, could this be also be revealed please?

Spied on


"new brochure about snitches"...

24.10.2010 19:19

Anarchist Solidarity Worldwide

re the idea of a "new brochure about snitches"...

a couple of people had already started writing/putting together articles about this subject, mainly arising from the actions of another undercover in a similar scene; we hope to include some material on Mr Stone, who we were also acquainted with. Obviously this is subject to the wishers of those closest to him and other considerations, but watch this space.

We see this as a project about specific people, the effect they had, plus some background and context, and thoughts about its implications. And some stuff on paranoia. It's still in the early stages so it won't appear next week. Its not designed to replace the excellent Activist Security texts that already exist.

Johann Neve
mail e-mail: nethersken@gmail.com


@messy

24.10.2010 19:29

Lie detectors don't work, FYI, and it is trivial to teach someone to 'pass' a test, so they won't even have a placebo effect on a real cop.

anti-quack


Swear on my life, Quack like a duck

24.10.2010 20:06

"Lie detectors don't work, FYI,
and it is trivial to teach someone to 'pass' a test,
so they won't even have a placebo effect on a real cop"

I disagree with all three of those things. Lie detectors do work. No, they don't indicate a lie or shows its context, but they do indicate physical discomfort and that can be used to indicate veracity. There are numerous studies that show to what degree different lie detector tests are accurate, with fMRI being the most accurate. Although fMRI is obviously too expensive to buy, perhaps it could be hired by the half hour from a Uni? - certainly a basic polygraph test kit is affordable. The reason it is useful is because in my experience informers do decline it, they wouldn't decline it if there wasn't something in it. I do believe a well trained polygraph interrogation with an experienced interpretator is a very useful indicator of at least 90%, and that accuracy rates of lower than 90% are due to human error in interpretation and technique.
Your post implied two seemingly contradictory Points of View:
1) That polygraphs don't work at all
and
2) That undercovers are trained to beat them.

Why would they train agents to beat them if they don't work at all?

It's very expensive to hire a polygraph even for a short time due to the operator/interpretator costs, and who would trust a professional company, but the tech does work to a useful degree.

There are plenty of activist groups with the dough to buy this gear off the shelf, and others with the know-how to build it. A half hour session with a pro costs about £600, the required components cost less. Buy it or build it and play around with it on your friends and family until you decide for yourself how accurate it is. It is accurate enough to be useful by rephrasing and reasking questions on multiple readings, especially by different operators

messy


No one expects the spanish inquisition

24.10.2010 21:28

it would be cheaper to threaten supposed infiltrators with a comfy chair.

Monty


to messy

24.10.2010 22:31

Yep - I'm not the same person as ftp. Which is why I use the upper case all the time. There is no way to sign comments definitively and having had others use my personal name on indymedia I'd take every "name" with a pinch of salt. Sorry for the confusion, but maybe less jumping to conclusions.

You've made the allegations - it's not up to ftp to follow it up. Why would you assume it is his job. If you have evidence then demonstrate it. Do you have a website rebutting the allegations? You state "indymedia informer" - what does that mean?

Polygraphs - yea, someone passes and they get a "clean bill of health". That's the sort of practice that leads to complacency in the longer term.

FTP


There will always be undercover cops

24.10.2010 22:40

If your movement has even a small amount of impact, you will most likely have undercover cops. Even if you find some, there will be others. This isn't to be defeatist, just a fact of life.

*It is better to have an enemy you know that one you don't*

So possibly if you have known undercover cops it is best not to out them, but to leave them be, and make it common knowledge that they are highly suspicious. Feed them some information but block them out of things where they may cause problems. If you are a purely legal campaigner, latch on to them and make others aware what they are up to.

Things should be done on a "need to know" basis, especially if they involve breaking the law.

anon


surely you meant leave a undercover for a while, are you in somekind of elite

24.10.2010 23:46

affinity group with hidden heirarchies,cos its sounding like it, I like to think not. Though its often how people like mark get in, a man who often provoked violence to key people at key points whilst playing others against each other with various inside info.

Those with evidence use it in the courts please,
business as usual like this shouldnt be allowed to go on.
Lets Nip this in the bud finally, our activists,families & workers are important, we are a segment the billions of animals on earth,tortured, murdered& experimented on everyday. A powerful activist tried to speak for the "animals" & "people"as seperate earlier in this thread, sorry if you feel some of us are breaking rank, but your your wrong on this.
To stop this kind of serious harm happening again, if possible use the law to our benefit

anot


What are you talking about ?!

25.10.2010 00:18

I feel like this discussion is on a slippery slope... First, some are talking about the possibility of renting a lie detector. I'm truly shocked to read this. How far are you willing to go, using the methods of the state ? Do you really want anyone getting involved with us for the first time to go through a session with a lie detector ?! I'm not an undercover, and I would refuse! I want communities based on trust, love and solidarity, not a constant sneaking suspicion leading to interrogations of its members by its members. Yes, that does mean that sometimes we make mistakes, and that sometimes we pay a high price for those mistakes. Still, I don't want to be part of a group using army methods to recruit its member. I'm not a fucking soldier. And what I'm saying here doesn't mean we don't need to be careful.

Second, some people are talking about legal prosecutions, or about asking them directly if they're cops, trying to find a line that we could use in the law. Mark Kennedy was, and is, on the side of law. He works for the state, the justice system works for him. It might be time to drop our illusions and hopes that there might be some kind of real justice serving us within this system. Be realistic.

Third, someone was talking about how smart it would be to not confront an infiltrator. First of all, I think this wouldn't work. Rumors spread fast amongst our communities, and if this rumour reached the ears of an infiltrators, he would know he's useless and would report it, leading to another infiltrator coming in. At best, this leaves a possibility for him to stay within the community, and who wants to share his/her life with a fucking pig ?!
My main point here is that this method might protect most of the members of a community, but couldn't possibly protect everyone. There would be people refusing to believe and defending him, leading to clashes within the community, people who wouldn't hear of the rumour and keep organizing things with him, and all the other communities abroad, as in the case of Flash, who just wouldn't know about it.

That's why my last point goes to the people who confronted him. Many many thanks to them, they did an amazing job at protecting hundreds of people they've never met. This was definitely the right thing to do, and it was very brave of them. All my love and support goes to them and to the people supporting them through these difficult times.

outing


Doing things in the right order

25.10.2010 04:34

This story was posted here so that the people who needed to know about Mark got the information. Beyond establishing the reliability of the story, right now, here on this public web page, is not a good choice of venue for further analysis. The fallout and lessons from this will be discussed within the movement for years to come. Loose talk here has massive fuckup potential for all kinds of reasons, so please, please stop doing it. And yes, I was guilty of this earlier in the thread too, which I now regret.

SinkLikeAStone


Not from me

25.10.2010 10:25

"Is it possible to please find out who the person was that Mark named as a fellow undercover?"

I understand a name was put to him of someone who had been suspected, but had disappeared some time previously. He said that person was part of the "same unit" as he was. This is, remember, the word of a proven liar and deceiver, though the sudden disappearance is eloquent.

If those who knew that person want to publicise the name or other details, no doubt they'll do so. I didn't have any contact with the person, or if I did it was so slight that I can't remember it. I have heard only a first name (a common one) so it would be daft for me to mention it.

Stroppyoldgit


Two tiers for a reason

25.10.2010 10:47

joe mcivor is right. There is a two-tier system of telling the truth going on here, and there's a bloody good reason for it. Do you think IM or our activist networks exist in some sort of bubble? Some people behave and talk as if they do. The mainstream media trawls this site for new stories and for further details on stories they're already researching. You don't seem to have appreciated what I said above, so being boring enough to repeat myself.....

"There are people who're almost certainly innocent and unconnected with our scenes involved in the nasty double-life mess created by "Flash". Having had the trail which led to his discovery explained at the @ Bookfair meeting (without details), there is no way any of those details can be revealed, documents produced etc. without bringing the media shit circus down on their heads."

Please think about all this in a wider context, beyond our clubby wee nexus.

Stroppyoldgit


re: news for the initiated

25.10.2010 11:16

joe mcivor:

> I find it incredible that indymedia -which is a news site - seems to be encouraging the suppression of news to the wider public

Indymedia published an important news story and provided a space to comment on it, for which we should be grateful. "The initiated" are choosing not to share all the details out of respect for our comrades' privacy and security, not because they want to keep people in the dark about Mark/Stone/Kennedy's activities. This was discussed at a meeting at the Anarchist Bookfair on Saturday (see above), which wasn't publicized but was widely networked within the bookfair (note the time constraints involved) and well attended. The feeling was that people wanted to spread the news as far and wide and credibly as possible without causing a public spectacle. Out of dozens of people participating I don't recall anybody voicing a different opinion from that.

I personally know nothing about what you ask in your second paragraph. I doubt anyone wants to keep information about his alleged activities in Ireland from you. It seems to me to be a fair question - I may have been a bit overly prosciptive in my last comment, simply because I don't want to see this situation getting more fubar than it is already.

SinkLikeAStone


Our comrades -and others, too

25.10.2010 12:20

SinkLikeAStone is right. Also involved is the privacy and security of people who, as far as we know, are not our comrades (at least, not part of our movement or any of our networks and may not share our views) but are also, as far as we know, entirely innocent in any of this. Should we be instrumental in causing the media to trample all over them just because we don't know them? That would be to behave like uncaring trots, which we're not.

Stroppyoldgit


The Rev

25.10.2010 12:24

I'm hoping investigation is being made as to which hairy introduced him onto the scene.
Maybe we can kill two birds with one stone.

the rev


"the initiated"

25.10.2010 12:55

I am not one of "the initiated". When I first saw the story I did wonder whether it was a false accusation, given the open nature if Indymedia. As it went on I decided it has the ring of truth about it.

I don't think I have ever met this person. I'm not heavily involved in direct action or campaigns in Nottingham. Neither do I have a great desire to find out more about the case. I can understand the reasons for saying something, but not saying too much, about the situation. It seems that it has been handled as well as possible in the circumstances.

To the betrayed I say, don't be too downhearted, take it as a compliment that the police want to stop what you are doing. Political policing is wrong and you must scare them. Take a while to get back on an even keel, gain strength from comrades, then carry on campaigning.

A N Other


are pretty unbelievable.

25.10.2010 14:43

Let's get this straight (and thanks to those people that have posted sensible, informed comments on here):

This information was obtained carefully and was backed up by a confession before being made public.
It's not possible (due to privacy and security reasons) to explain the exact details of how the information was obtained. It is also not relevant to the facts.
There was a meeting at the @ Bookfair where the full story was explained to over 50 people with a chance to ask questions.
There has been no denial from Mark, or indeed anyone.
So, we know he was/is an undercover police officer that infilitrated numerous political groups/scenes in Britian/Ireland/Europe and maybe the USA.
Those people that came across/worked with him now need to access what damage he could have done and act accordingly.
Those people that have never met him don't need to, for them it's a purely academic interest, but gives truth to the well known fact that anarchist/activist groups are infiltrated by the state.
Demanding proof if you've never met or worked with him is egocentric and destracting to the real issue.
People that come up with suggestions like made people take a lie detector test are living on a fantasy world.
Speculation about what he was exactly involved with is pointless. If you worked with him YOU WILL KNOW and can act accordingly.
If you didn't, it doesn't matter, so shut up, you have no 'right' to know anything more than has been published.

Some of the comments on here...


To Pretty Unbelievable

25.10.2010 15:20

I couldn't agree more. Nothing should be posted on here apart from the basics and the fact that it has been confirmed. We are infiltrated. Fact. Don't let it make you paranoid as that is what they want. I bet they are reading this thread and rubbing their hands with glee. This thread should (in my opinion) be removed - or most of the posts anyway. It should be locked.

KT


Amazing story

25.10.2010 19:11

Totally fascinating story. Well done to all those involved outing the guy.

Since this is something that touches on all activism I'm sure many people would love to know more about this. Usually what we hear about undercover cops is all just speculation so you never know what's fantasy and what's really true, realistic or likely. It would be great if those involved published a booklet on this story some time in the future to let the activist community know more about what happened in this case. After all it wouldn't be telling the cops anything they don't already know. Though I can understand if those involved just want to put the whole affair behind them ASAP.

Tandy


What's new??

26.10.2010 11:01

It is inevitable that the state powers will try to infiltrate organizations they see as a serious threat to their position of power. Their spying and building of dossiers is bad enough. What I think is more dangerous is how they use ‘agent provocateurs’ to initiate extreme acts in an attempt to provoke rash or illegal acts to discredit people/organizations. The UK filth are known to use such tactics. Is there any evidence of this particular shitbag acting as provocateur??

Rumah Kunyung


Sweden

26.10.2010 18:32

Does anyone know if he ever participated in any projects/actions in sweden? Or if he had any other connections to sweden?

GA


in Italy

26.10.2010 19:22

according to this post:
 http://piemonte.indymedia.org/article/10413?&condense_comments=false#comment9358
the cop has been seen last July in Northern Italy (Venaus, Piemonte) in the context of
an animal liberation meeting. He was giving climbing lessons and playing guitar around the fire.

*****
altre info importanti
author by informatopublication date lun 25 ott, 2010 14:48

Era presente anche all'incontro di liberazione animale di Venaus, dall'8 all'11 luglio 2010. Tenne il corso di arrampicata sugli alberi e la sera suonava la chitarra attorno al falò

L.


@KT - To Pretty Unbelievable

26.10.2010 20:50

Whilst generally agreeing with you, you say ...

"This thread should (in my opinion) be removed - or most of the posts anyway."

If you can say which Indymedia guidelines are being broken for which comments, I will happily remove them. Guidelines here:  https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/static/editorial.html

IMCer


Adrian Radford will be p*****

26.10.2010 20:53

Poor Adrian Radford his business trying to make money out of squaddies as they leave the army has failed, Eye Spy want virtually nothing to do with him and apart from a few articles in the press a couple of years back he didn't get the fame he was hoping for. Now his last chance at making it was to write a book detailing what he describes as the intelligence operation of the century, which to everyone else was simply him joining a group open to all and then making stuff up (hardly James Bond) whilst hoarding a few leaflets. Now this guy Stone/Kennedy/Flash comes along. Flash his infilitrated far more groups over a far longer period of time and even done some international stuff so poor old Radford looks second rate once again.

Never mind Adrian. Perhaps you should just go back to your little fantasies about being a super spy. After all reality hasn't been very kind to you has it.

gravy


international reach and a message to mark

27.10.2010 10:22

As one person touched on, one of the things Mark was active in was the Icelandic environmental movement. He was involved from the start of its international manifestation, which at its beginning in 2005 was made up largely of British activists. Thus he was sent to infiltrate a campaign which wasn't even directly linked to British interests. It goes to show that the British secret services have tentacles which reach further than just these isles...

Mark, if you read this, I wish you nothing but betrayal, lies and loneliness for the rest of your days. May you end like Javert from Les Miserables.

a former friend.

cheated


Maybe..

28.10.2010 01:32

"Thus he was sent to infiltrate a campaign which wasn't even directly linked to British interests. It goes to show that the British secret services have tentacles which reach further than just these isles... "

...but not necessarily. He said he was "asked to resign" from the police in late 2009. If that's true (which it may not be), then they were well pissed off with him. I can think of two reasons why they might have been. One of them could be his dandering all over Europe instead of concentrating on the (domestic) job he was supposed to be doing.

We don't know and can't be sure he was "sent to infiltrate a campaign" in another country. Maybe, maybe not. This is in the realm of fruitless speculation unless anyone has incontrovertable information.

Stroppyoldgit


re: Maybe..

28.10.2010 11:47

"This is in the realm of fruitless speculation unless anyone has incontrovertable information"

Since Mark was so honest about being an undercover cop when asked, did anyone also ask him what his orders and mission were?

diz


Bristol Indy's position

28.10.2010 13:34

After some discussion amongst the Collective, Bristol Indy have put out a statement:
 http://bristol.indymedia.org/article/696908

All comments welcome!

Bristol indymedia person
mail e-mail: imc-bristol@lists.indymedia.org
- Homepage: http://bristol.indymedia.org/article/696908


BAE infiltration of CAAT and Liverpool Catholic Worker

28.10.2010 14:31

BAE infiltration of CAAT and Liverpool Catholic Worker

Reflections by Mark Thomas (stand up) and Ciaron O'Reilly (Catholic Worker)

 http://www.indymedia.ie/article/85347?search_text=infiltration

BAE
- Homepage: http:// http://www.indymedia.ie/article/85347?search_text=infiltration


Tips for outings (revised)

29.10.2010 00:19

Thanks to everyone who made the effort of checking and validating the above information, organising the meeting at the @bookfair and finding known groups to check and support the outing, thus putting an end to the uncertainty and uneasyness some of us like myself felt after the first publication.

Sadly, many of us will be confronted with having to deal with informers or undercover cops at some stage in their life and activism. Therefore, here is a slightly revised version of the tips for groups and individuals in the sad situation of having to deal with outings (originally published earlier in this thread of comments):

There has been a long history of counter information tactics directed against radical movements and designed to discredit and divide people and structures. Therefore groups that have to deal with outings should make sure to heed the following points:

- If you are suspecting someone of being an informant you have a responsibility (for the structures that person is in but also for the person itself and the effect false rumors can have on that persons activism and life) to start some serious research to either substantiate or dispel that suspicion.
- If you find your suspicions substantiated by your research you should make the facts public in order to protect radical movements and stop the person in question from causing more harm.
- Although it may not be possible or desirable to publish all the information you have about an informant or how you managed to collect information about him/her, you should be going to great length to make it transparent to others that your claims are based on facts. Don't expect people to just believe you. If we just believe and spread any claims then we are making it very easy for state agencies to manipulate and damage our activities and structures.
- An outing should be published or supported by a known group that can be contacted and held accountable for the published claims or asked questions. If you are not a known or open group yourself go find one to support your outing (if your research was good, then this shouldn't be difficult since all radical groups have a self-interest in stopping informants. If you don't know any known or open groups then local antirepression groups are a good place to start. They can also give you advice on dealing with suspicions and doing responsible research). Of course, any supporting group needs to check the research they are asked to support and not just embrace it because the people that made it seem genuine or are friends.
- As in any useful report, make sure you answer the Five W's - Who? (Who was involved?), What? (What happened (what's the story))? Where? (Where did it take place?), When? (When did it take place?), Why? (Why did it happen?), How? (How did it happen?). Or, if for some reason (i.e. security of those doing the research) you can not answer some of these questions, include a comment on why this is so.
- Take some time to think about where to publish an article outing an informant first. Certainly, a medium where anyone can publish anonymously such as indymedia is not a good choice, because no-one will be able to tell immediately if any claims made concerning identity, group or organisational affiliations of the authors are true and therefore whether one can trust that claims made in the article have been well researched and checked. Choose a publication with an editorial process or publish in co-operation with a well-known group i.e. on their website. This way people will have much less cause to speculate whether what they are reading is real or fake. Once an outing has been published by a reliable and accountable source, it can be spread via channels that have a larger readership such as indymedia quoting the original statement.

Ofcourse anyone reading or hearing about an outing also has a responsibility. So, if the supposed outing is anonymous and basically says "This sucker is an informant. We know. We won't tell you who we are or how to get in touch. We just know, trust us, believe us. Here's some photos. Go spread the word. And the photos. Trust us. We are in control." you should NOT spread this, rather help to make sure that everyone in our movements understands why it is irresponsible and damaging to spread claims that have not been substantiated or well sourced. Or, if you do know the information to be true, help those publishing it to spread it in a manner that is more safe from manipulation.

commonsense


How?

29.10.2010 12:26

I suppose when these undercovers are put into the movement, their id is pretty good. For example, their name would have to tally up to their cars in case they were stopped on a demo and they were driving. So you go about finding if the suspects are registered at their addresses with the local council and they are. They have full on id given to them but they have no family or business you can check out. You can't get near to them for various reasons. You check out their previous address and that tallies up too. But other factors indicate they are not what they seem. What do you do?

Trusted


Oy vey

29.10.2010 15:46

A double life of treachery is a cursed life in every respect. No need to wish him to Gehenna - he's in it already!

Meshuggah


Damn

29.10.2010 16:20

"Let there be no hope for informers, and may all the heretics and all the wicked instantly perish; may all the enemies of Your people be speedily extirpated; and may You swiftly uproot, break, crush and subdue the reign of wickedness speedily in our days. Blessed are You L-rd, who crushes enemies and subdues the wicked."

Meshuggah


Oy vey

29.10.2010 16:25

"Let there be no hope for informers, and may all the heretics and all the wicked instantly perish; may all the enemies of Your people be speedily extirpated; and may You swiftly uproot, break, crush and subdue the reign of wickedness speedily in our days. Blessed are You L-rd, who crushes enemies and subdues the wicked."

Meshuggah


Hey Meshugga - curioous?

30.10.2010 04:52

Is that a scriptual reference (what's the quote) or from Pulp Fiction?

Curious


Still maybe...

30.10.2010 09:23

@ diz "Since Mark was so honest about being an undercover cop when asked, did anyone also ask him what his orders and mission were?"

I understand he had no choice over being honest or not about the basic fact he is (or was, according to him) a police officer. He was presented with undeniable proof (which is not being released to protect others, as discussed ad nauseum above).

Beyond that fundamental fact, what would have been the point in asking him for lots of details? He has been lying to us and deceiving his "friends" for the best part of a decade, so it would be impossible to tell if any answers he gave were truthful or simply more lies designed the cause disruption. Mark's name and "honest" don't belong in the same sentence.

It would have been different, of course, if Mark had been owning up voluntarily or in response to mere suspicion, but in this case all he could say was "It's a fair cop, guv, you done me bang to rights this time." Well, something like that, anyway.


Stroppyoldgit


Bunch of fuking Punters

30.10.2010 10:12

..and thus you can be infiltrated...thus also...

"...I've known Mark for about 7 years, treated him as a friend and comrade, drank with him and had a laugh with him, he bought my baby little jumpsuits when he was born and we stayed on his boat in May"

..but you never took LSD with him?...you never really got totally wasted with the geezer, you never really broke it right down...because you are 'punters', you are not awake, and why, in turn, you are politco weirdo's with loony agendas. There are of course some sound people at protest camps and the like, people that know, but there are also a lot of brain dead obbsesive politco weirdos that havn't got a fuking clue.and very often these sorts of folks will control the collective reality, being the egotistical headcases that they are. Thus the 'straight' reality that you inhabit can also be inhabited by undercover coppers. Real convoy cannot be infiltrated by the cops, because the convoy (new school, i.e anarchist post beanfield) is a real time chaos trap for the babylon ritual abuse system which is where the undercover cop is based in his pyscology. (basically).

Failing this, I would say always assume any open meetings are infiltrated or being watched, and that would include EF!


Bles

sam


lolz

30.10.2010 16:37

"Thus the 'straight' reality that you inhabit can also be inhabited by undercover coppers. Real convoy cannot be infiltrated by the cops, because the convoy (new school, i.e anarchist post beanfield) is a real time chaos trap for the babylon ritual abuse system which is where the undercover cop is based in his pyscology. (basically)."

ha ha ha. First actual laugh in this whole sorry mess. CHAOS TRAP!!!

not real convoy, evidently


Oh come on people, get over yourselves!

30.10.2010 21:56

So a friend betrayed us, of course it's sad but all this moaning and groaning (and wishing the man harm?!) is useful to no-one, and just makes us ugly.

Indymedia covers a broad range of REALLY important issues. When the most popular item on the newswire is "Mark Kennedy/Stone exposed as undercover police officer" I have to wonder if we've not become a little self obsessed?

If actually you're quite getting off on this narrow, sensationalized melodrama I recommend "Hello" magazine or "The Sun".

led


no evidence!!!???

31.10.2010 20:55

theres still no evidence - for all we know, Mark could have been set up and be sitting in a police cell somewhere being setup by Special Branch as a cop... if this is legit, then surely theere is some proof that can be posted online!!!??? all we have is claims on a website - thats not proof - and already people are accepting it as fact...!!!

karen


Witnessed confession

01.11.2010 14:14

Karen, the officer concerned made a verbal confession in front of six people. Those people are trusted within the activist community.

If you know some activists then why not ask them what they think? Or if they trust the judgement of these groups  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/10/466576.html ?

If you don't know any activists then it probably doesn't really concern you all that much.

If you think all of these groups  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/10/466576.html are mistaken then, don't get involved with them.

The consensus amongst sensible, cautious activists is that this is true. Most of us know people who have been in contact with Mark.

dj


I take it

02.11.2010 13:23

That actual evidence (other than his own confession) has been seen? Is there any chance that the bloke may be mentally ill or a attention seeking fantasist? I only ask as it seems his confession is all there is so far.

Best wishes to those that have been hurt by this.

Londonlad


Actual evidence

02.11.2010 17:08

@ Londonlad. Don't blame you for not ploughing through all these comments, but if you had it should be clear that, yes, actual evidence has been seen and it is conclusive that the guy is / was a police officer (he says he was "asked to resign" -effectively sacked- last year). The evidence is not being published solely for the protection of other, completely innocent, people. The people who saw the evidence are all very sensible, stable, and honest people not prone to jump to conclusions or relay bollocks rumours and tittle-tattle. I trust them completely, as do others who know them.

Flash Mark's "confession" was more like a confirmation. There was really nothing else he could have said it in the face of the evidence with which he was presented. Other things he said may or may not be true and have to be taken with a pinch of salt, but the fact that he is / was a police officer infiltrating several activist movements and groups from 2000 until at least 2009 is solid and does not depend on a "confession", let alone from Mark being a fantasist or mentally ill.

Nobody who knew him thinks he's the former. He did account for various periods of absence by saying he was depressed. That may be credible, given the double life he was leading and the betrayals involved, or may have been just a cover story. Who knows? But it's certainly not an explanation for what has emerged.

It's time to stop scratching this itch.

Stroppyoldgit


emails and phones

03.11.2010 21:15

crossposted from the newer article about 'Stone'
yo, i'm a complete outsider from abroad, but these news reached me through a mailing list. It was mentioned that this shithead had been on many mailing lists and oughta be removed, so i gathered all the addresses and phone numbers attributed to him in the comments to this article, for the sake of checking our list. So i thought i'd do the favor of posting them all here comprehensively:

email addresses of Mark Kennedy aka 'flash&wheels&10 years of lies'

 flashwheels@yahoo.co.uk
"anything with "lumsk" in it"
 markstone@o2email.co.uk (goes directly to his phone +447590189428)
 trailertrashheroe@yahoo.co.uk
"and one that was something like ms1969@ blah blah"
 mslondon1969@yahoo.co.uk
phone numbers:
+44 7765243665
+447590189428

outsider


class politics

06.11.2010 21:04

I happen to know that this is true through personal contacts but find the way it is presented here culty with little evidence being shown. this is also unhelpful as this whole posting contains very little useful information. So what if you call him a scum bag, pissing in the wind.

To me it all goes to show how middle class and cliquey the activist scene is. The best comment I read was by uncle acab. It surprises me that people are concerned about protecting the people traumatised by this. I mean, get a grip, people are raped and have to recount the story to the police and then go through a harrowing trial, often being treated appallingly. Thats what happens to real people anyways. I think you are pretty overpriveleged if you have that sort of expectation. I wonder if people had their heads a bit more in the real world if this would really have happened.

I can't quite see a rape victim getting that sort of treatment. Maybe it's time people put themselves on an equal footing with the masses.

rudegirl


lessons

07.11.2010 15:50

While I appreciate the need for thoughtful security on this, if lessons are to be learned more widely then as much information as is safe to be published would be useful.

Agents and officers normally deny that water is wet before admitting their role, so why did this one admit it? The articles indicate a crisis of conscience due to overwhelming proof, probably due to the officer being sacked. Is that a fair summary?

Suspicions and 'gut feeling' should not be ignored because we always pick up valid 'tells' subconciously that we can't articulate, but the agents/officers employers also know how to manipulate us psychologically. Decent people like to think the best of others and hate to raise suspicions and that plays against dissenters. Did anyone from the infiltrated groups ever try to check this person out during their career before the confession? What lessons do the investigators draw?

pass


Pics

07.11.2010 22:58

How about putting up some better pics of the Flash git? The 2 above are terrible, in the 1st he's wearing a large hat, and he only rarely wore his hair down as in the 2nd pic. Come on, there's loads of pics of this posing wanker, including ones which show his tats n piercings, and ones from his past life too (as seen at the 69ers party). There's video as well. This material should be all over the internet.

O


@ rudegirl

09.11.2010 14:21

If he'd been your supposed "lover", the experience of discovering he was actually an undercover cop is not far removed from rape, I imagine. It's an emotional form of rape, if not a legal one.

I think a mistake was made in publishing his real name. If that had not been done, then a lot more evidence could have been produced with the name blanked out. That would not have put other, completely unconnected, people at risk. Now that the name has been published, that evidence has to be kept under wraps, unfortunately, and the genie can't be put back in the bottle.

There's nothing "culty" about it, just a desire to be responsible and not land completely innocent people in a load of shit. As I say, perhaps done the wrong way round, but I don't criticise those who investigated and confronted him. They did an excellent job.

Stroppyoldgit


Special Demonstration Squad, Operation Yellowstone + Reclaim the Streets?

11.11.2010 17:00

I hope someone will someday write the secret history of these shadowy operations, and the impact they had on once-peaceful organisations like Reclaim the Streets.

The text from this pamphlet - 'Mayday McDonald’s police entrapment?' - gives an idea of some of the things that were going on:  http://white-wash.tripod.com/report.html

Ian


More Photo's Please

15.11.2010 20:21

Please can anyone with photos of this prick please post them/links to them here.
It is gonna be a bit difficul;t to recognise him based on 1 pic with him wearing a hat, and the other quite an old one by the look of it.

Thanks

Ditto


History surging through our vains

18.11.2010 00:37

Since the creation of the modern state there hace been undercover Police, hell even the kings had them! Why are people getting all angry? İt's like your all surprised at the lenghts the state Will go to, to defend itself! Grow some balls! İnfiltrate the state! And stop complaining like you've never read russian recolutionary history, or any history at all. The problem with the majority of us is we're hippies! And not true revolutionaries! The state knows how to play the game, do you? Someone join the Police! And Tell us what they're doing

Kidnapped
- Homepage: http://Freejock.net


Pics

23.11.2010 00:44

It's been over a month since the Mark Stone/Kennedy Security Squad went public with this, and by now the net should be flooded with pics of this cunt and the info that's known about him. Time to fucking wake up people!

Frankie


@stroppy

28.11.2010 11:31

"I understand he had no choice over being honest or not about the basic fact he is (or was, according to him) a police officer. He was presented with undeniable proof (which is not being released to protect others, as discussed ad nauseum above).

Beyond that fundamental fact, what would have been the point in asking him for lots of details? He has been lying to us and deceiving his "friends" for the best part of a decade, so it would be impossible to tell if any answers he gave were truthful or simply more lies designed the cause disruption. Mark's name and "honest" don't belong in the same sentence.

It would have been different, of course, if Mark had been owning up voluntarily or in response to mere suspicion, but in this case all he could say was "It's a fair cop, guv, you done me bang to rights this time." Well, something like that, anyway.



Stroppyoldgit "

Absoluty true, and correct my freind - given that one of the tasks of undercover cops/informers is to sow unrest, he could have insinuated that other innocent people are agents, and had his passing shot at sowing discord.

Once the cofession was there that he had been lying, no further information can be trusted.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

fly poster


Facts

01.12.2010 22:31

There are facts that are known about this cop -, his name and family details, his accent, his speech impediment, his tattoos and physical description, the name of his boat, his football team, etc. Details of his cover story, apparent likes and dislikes, the birth place on his passport might also be relevent. There are many photos of him, videos also, and handwriting samples. This and any other known information should have been plastered all over the internet weeks ago to ensure that his career as an undercover cop is well and truely finished and that everyone taken in by him is fully aware of his true identity.

ACAB


This Will Always Happen

03.12.2010 21:26

When running or getting involved in any activity that will cause trouble and expense to vested interests this will always happen. Movements have to be open to be successful. The alternative is to get so paranoid you end up ineffective. Moscow rules cannot apply, although some of them may be adaptable;

 http://ask.metafilter.com/30273/What-are-the-40-full-Moscow-Rules

Delia
mail e-mail: wahjina@hotmail.com


FINISH THE JOB!

12.12.2010 17:36

FFS! Finish the job! You let this asshole walk away into the sunset, the fucking least you can do is honor the commitments you made to expose the info you have about him. This is too important to lunch out.

Europunk


You will never get over it

19.12.2010 14:29

Dear campaigners:

My companions and I know a guy in Canada. For four years he worked with us, ate with us, and won sympathy as a sometimes mildly put upon member of our group. Turned out that he was a US Navy Seal. That was 35 years go and I still have not got over it. Welcome to a select but quite hurt minority.

Bigger thomas
mail e-mail: Clothyardshaft@gmail.com


Undercover officer spied on green activists: Guardian

09.01.2011 22:20

Asshole Kennedy
Asshole Kennedy

Guardian investigation reveals details of PC Mark Kennedy's infiltration of dozens of protest groups

Rob Evans and Paul Lewis

A police officer who for seven years lived deep undercover at the heart of the environmental protest movement, travelling to 22 countries gleaning information and playing a frontline role in some of the most high-profile confrontations, has quit the Met, telling his friends that what he did was wrong.

PC Mark Kennedy, a Metropolitan police officer, infiltrated dozens of protest groups including anti-racist campaigners and anarchists, a Guardian investigation reveals.

Legal documents suggest Kennedy's activities went beyond those of a passive spy, prompting activists to ask whether his role in organising and helping to fund protests meant he turned into an agent provocateur.

Kennedy first adopted the fake identity Mark Stone in 2003, pretending to be a professional climber, in order to disrupt the UK's peaceful movement to combat climate change. Then aged 33, he grew long hair and sported earrings and tattoos, before going on to attend almost every major demonstration in the UK up to the G20 protests in London. He was issued with a fake passport and driving licence.

Sensitive details about Kennedy's activities had been set to be raised in Nottingham crown court in legal argument relating to a case of six activists accused of conspiring to break into Ratcliffe-on-Soar coal-fired power station.

But prosecutors unexpectedly abandoned the trial after they were asked to disclose classified details about the role the undercover officer played in organising and helping to fund the protest.

Kennedy, who recently resigned from the Met, is understood to be torn over his betrayal, telling one activist that his infiltration had been "really wrong". "I'll just say I'm sorry, for everything," Kennedy said. "It really hurts."

Apparently keen for redemption, Kennedy indicated he would "help" the defendants during their trial and was in touch with their lawyer. He backed out three weeks ago, citing his concern for the safety of his family and himself.

The Met could face pressure to explain the ethics of deploying an officer so deep undercover. It has been repeatedly criticised for its handling of protests. A Metropolitan police spokesman said: "We are not prepared to discuss the matter."

Kennedy is believed to have been one of at least two undercover operatives working for the National Public Order Intelligence Unit, an agency that monitors so-called domestic extremists. He told friends each undercover spy cost £250,000 a year.

The officer was found out in October after friends, some of whom had grown suspicious about a seemingly "perfect activist", discovered a passport bearing his real name. They eventually unearthed documentary proof that he had been a policeman since around 1994, and, confronted with the evidence, Kennedy confessed. He is now living abroad.

Police arrested 114 activists at a school near Nottingham in April 2009 in a controversial operation to prevent activists from breaking into the Ratcliffe-on-Soar power station the next day.

Twenty-six activists were later charged with conspiracy to commit aggravated trespass. Of those, 20 admitted they planned to break into the power station to prevent the emission of around 150,000 tonnes of carbon.

They were convicted after failing to convince a jury their actions were designed to prevent immediate greater harm from climate change. Handing down lenient sentences last week, a judge said they had been acting with "the highest possible motives".

It is widely presumed that Kennedy tipped off police about the protest. But activists who spent four months working with Kennedy to hatch the plan now question whether he crossed a boundary and became an agent provocateur.

The allegation was set to emerge during the trial of the six defendants who – unlike the other activists – maintained that they had not yet agreed to break into the power station. According to legal papers drawn up by their lawyers, Kennedy helped to organise the demonstration from an early stage, driving on reconnaissance trips of the power station and suggesting the "best and easiest way" to get into the plant.

"He continued to participate, including hiring, paying for and driving a vehicle and volunteering to be one of two principal climbers who would attach himself to the [coal-carrying] conveyor belt. He actively encouraged participation in the action and expressed the view that he was pleased it was going to be an action of some significance," the papers say.

The documents state that planning meetings for the protest took place at Kennedy's house and he paid the court fees of another activist arising from a separate demonstration. "It is assumed that the finance for the accommodation, the hire of vehicles and the paying of fines came from police funds," they state.

Lawyers for the activists submitted their demand for material about Kennedy's role last Monday. The CPS confirmed it would not proceed with the trial, stating that "previously unavailable information" that undermined its case had come to light.

It said there was no longer sufficient evidence for a realistic prospect of prosecution.

"I have no doubt that our attempts to get disclosure about Kennedy's role has led to the collapse of the trial," said Mike Schwarz, a solicitor at the Bindmans law firm who represented the activists.

"It is no coincidence that just 48 hours after we told the CPS our clients could not receive a fair trial unless they disclosed material about Kennedy, they halted the prosecution. Given that Kennedy was, until recently, willing to assist the defence, one has to ask if the police were facing up to the possibility their undercover agent had turned native."

Source:  http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/09/undercover-office-green-activists

...


We're on their case.

10.01.2011 09:06

Back in the 1960's the met set up the notorious Special Demonstration Squad, a unit somewhere between the Metropolitan Police and Special Branch. Since then they have been used to destablise ANY movement that shows potential to be popular. There are former officers of this squad already spilling the beans on the what why and where of it all. I hope Kennedy realises his responsibilty to the people and joins the bean spillers.

SDS your number is up. I'd say to all the rats involved it's time to jump that sinking ship cos we're gonna get ya. There are a number of former and serving officers who's morals are bigger than the selfish political motives of their controllers. I promise when this sh*t hits the fan, many faces will be spattered - your oppurtunity to be a whistle blower is now, with a limited time window. There will be criminal trials and many police resignations as the truth comes out.

The SDS will never rest in peace.

From a concerned freelance journalist.


Cop Catcher UK


more links discovering kennedys engagement against activists

10.01.2011 14:41

...


more information in several languages...

10.01.2011 14:51

italian:

 http://notizie.virgilio.it/notizie/esteri/2011/1_gennaio/10/gb_mark_kennedyda_infiltrato_tra_ecologisti_a_sincero_militante,27800019.html

spanish:

 http://www.abc.es/20110110/internacional/abci-infiltrado-cambia-bando-201101101245.html

turkish:

 http://www.internethaber.com/gizli-polis-eylemcilerin-tarafinda-gecti,-dava-dusuruldu-320380h.htm
 http://www.zaman.com.tr/haber.do?haberno=1076946&title=protestocularin-arasina-sizan-ingiliz-ajan-provokasyon-yapmis

english:

 http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE70937X20110110
 http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2011/01/10/did-undercover-climate-officer-go-native/
 http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jan/10/activism-climate-change
 http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23912581-trial-of-six-eco-activists-collapses-as-undercover-policeman-goes-native.do
 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8249734/Trial-against-environmental-activists-dropped-after-undercover-Met-police-officer-switches-sides.html
 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8250346/What-is-the-National-Public-Order-Intelligence-Unit.html
 http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/73504,news-comment,news-politics,police-infiltrator-exposes-cops-dodgy-protest-tactics-mark-kennedy
 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8250140/The-undercover-officer-hoping-to-make-amends.html
 http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2011/jan/10/undercover-environmental-activist-polive

german:

 http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/33/33938/1.html
 http://www.andrej-hunko.de/presse/359-grenzueberschreitendes-spitzel-treiben-aufklaeren

...


There's a reason wolves exist

10.01.2011 23:40

This type of long term action has always gone on. Sociopaths are rather common in Power, and finding ones to employ has been standard practise for 100's of years.

Let's not forget the most important issue here: Apparently Mark enjoyed a wife & child in his "normality" as well as having (a couple I know of) partners "in deep cover". Chances either party knew about the other? Zero. Now, if you can lie to someone that close to you whilst fucking them, lying to "mates who I have a pint with" is laughably easy.

+1 for Matriarchal arrangements, eh?



Personally, I dispaired of certain groups because, yes, ethical & emotional maturity is what humanity needs and it is lovely to be one of the lucky humans.

However: to catch the wolves without becoming wolves yourselves, you emply guard dogs.

Certain groups should think long & hard about getting hold of a guard dog or two. Yes, they might have been traumatised & are beyond socialisation [caveat: not mentally ill] of the "standard" of enlightenment required (shadow work - don't expect them to cry, for instance), but it'd save you all being so hurt when sociopaths are employed to infiltrate the movement(s).

Guard dogs are also stupidly loyal - use people to their limitations, and start working on a mature level - it ain't all "good guys" and "bad guys", as Mark proved.

Leapfrogging this Nice Open WiFI


Does anyone know who the undercover policewoman is?

11.01.2011 13:45

The guardian talks of Mark Kennedy admitting there is/was an undercover police woman working in Leeds at the same time as him.

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jan/10/mark-kennedy-second-undercover-ecoactivist

Does anyone know who she is, got any pics etc?

Emma Goldman


Coverage in MSM

12.01.2011 16:50

binban


At least one more deeply embedded

13.01.2011 12:10

I ceased to be involved with any political groups in Nottingham around 2004/5 after being informed that the Nottingham activist scene was infiltrated by state operatives and that I was better off keeping my distance.

I won't name my source for this information but suffice to say I trusted their judgement and took their advice. The last activity I got involved in was the Mansfield Woodhouse eco protest.

Some of you will know who I am and I'm not posting anonymously here. I am no longer involved in any form of activism, outside of effecting micro changes on my own doorstep alongside fellow community members, so I have nothing to hide from.

I'm also banned from the Sumac for being slightly rowdy a few years back, at least until I apologise (it'll be a cold day in hell tbh) That should give a few of you activists a clue as to who I am.

This Stone guy came with us to Dsei right (2003 or 2005 I think) ??

The time when every building we planned to occupy had police turning up 30 seconds before us. I think we managed to occupy one briefly. It was the year that affinity group from not far from Notts tried to storm the changing of the guard (so whatever year that was). I said at the time that one of our number had to be informing for the police to be so on the ball. These concerns were dismissed out of hand.

The other agent has a name too and is very prominent in the activist scene in Notts and further afield. He is a good deal older than your typical activist too. It's not for me to name names as it is essentially second hand information and I would sooner leave it to someone else to poke a stick in the hornets nest and see what materialises. Consider this a friendly heads up

I know some of you are involved for altruistic reasons and that you are essentially good people with good hearts and I've shared a laugh and a beer with some of you too. (though in truth I think about 70 or 80% of you are jumped up little arseholes if I'm being entirely honest)

This heads up is for the minority of you that I actually like.

Don't rest on your laurels because the battle against the spies will run a lot deeper than you dare to think.

Peace !


C_o_l


Her name was Lynn Watson

13.01.2011 14:11

thatwaswhatiwantedtoknow


STOP CALLING THE MOBILE NUMBER GIVEN HERE, IT DOES NOT BELONG TO MARK KENNEDY/ST

13.01.2011 17:18

I don't know who has thought that the mobiel number ending 3665 would belong to Mark Kennedy/Stone, and why it posted it here. It doesn't - it belongs to someone who has nothing to do with this thing.

Please do NOT call me.

Outsider


STOP CALLING THE MOBILE NUMBER GIVEN HERE, IT DOES NOT BELONG TO MARK KENNEDY/ST

13.01.2011 17:25

I don't know who has thought that the mobiel number ending 3665 would belong to Mark Kennedy/Stone, and why it posted it here. It doesn't - it belongs to someone who has nothing to do with this thing.

Please do NOT call me.

Outsider


Named- Undercover Officer 'A' is Police Officer Lyn Watson

13.01.2011 19:06

Officer 'A' is Police Officer Lyn Watson, formally based in Leeds.

Formally of Clown Army and the Activists Medics (+other groups)
Pics at:-
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2011/01/471994.html?c=on#comments

Jane Doh


Wise Words

15.01.2011 18:49

Yes wise words indeed. I agree with everything you say. I also am fairly certain I know someone undercover and who has been for years. I am not a paronoid person and have never ever suspected anyone else. I cannot go into details here.


Anyway I hear this Kennedy guy is going to sell his story. I wonder if he does, how he will portray the movement. Let's see if he is really sorry.




Anon

For COL


Latest Update 15th Jan

15.01.2011 23:50

BBC:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12199686

"I can't sleep," he said. "I have lost weight and am constantly on edge.

"I barricade the door with chairs at night. I am in genuine fear for my life. I have been told that my former bosses from the force are out here in America looking for me. I have been told by activists to watch my back as people are out to get me."

Yes Mark, you are the prey, and the hunters are out to get you. What you did for the state is unforgivable.You have pissed a lot of genuinely beautiful people off and have shown total disregard for them and their communities. I hope what you are experiencing serves as a stark warning to any filth out there who are already undercover or would consider doing so in the future.
Be afraid... be very afraid!!!

Not So Flash


kennedy

16.01.2011 12:56

so just wondering... is the Kennedy interview that's just appeared in the mail all lies?

about sleeping with just two women, the five year relationship, the death threats to his children from the campaigners, and so on

is he just trying to make himself look good in all this at the expense of others?

anon


Drug dealing PC Mark Stone / Kennedy

20.01.2011 01:56

Well he sold me some nice MDMA pills at his 40th Bithday bash - the 69ers party in 2009.

Thanks Mr PC for the pills - but are you really allowed to deal them?? Not such an ex drug dealer as u make out!

69ers Party


Aka Peter Black - undercover cop 5

25.01.2011 00:26


Alias "Peter Black" was deployed from 1993 - 1997. He was inside the M11 Link road campaign plus active in anti-rasist groups

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/24/undercover-police-met-spy-unit

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/mar/14/undercover-police-far-left-secret

Undercover Cop ~ 5


He was only human

14.11.2011 22:10

I dont care much for the police full stop. He did a job did throught he was helping law and order (joke) give him a break we are all led to belive things that simply are not true.
And the left wing people he infiltrated are probably the most switched on people there is left in this country .And the girlfriend talk to him he realy loved you .

tony mitchell
mail e-mail: mtony969@aol.com


Following 'Confessions' programme

15.11.2011 00:42

I can understand how people trusted this guy, after watching 'Confessions of an Undercover Cop', Whilst I felt sorry for the people who had been betrayed by Mark, I also felt a sense of admiration for him for being courageous enough to open himself up to public scrutiny on top of the anger his former friends must feel towards him. Also, I thought more highly of him because of his changing allegience from the state to the environmental movement.

However, after thinking about it for a while, I wondered how livid his former friends must have felt about each action they passionately put their all into being undermined my him. How could they ever trust him again; they must feel gutted that they ever trusted him and that they were unwittingly helping their own plans to fail by doing so.

Nevertheless, Mark Kennedy did appear changed and remorseful. And I hope his life's work will now be turned to remedying the situation as best he can by further undermining public confidence in the police, and exposing the real, corporate focused, reasons for undercover operations of environmental and other social movements.

Ali
mail e-mail: ah18162005@yahoo.co.uk


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