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Stop Anti-Traveller Racism At Leeds Common Place

No Racism at The Common Place | 24.02.2011 10:29 | Anti-racism | Culture | Social Struggles | Sheffield

(How much lower can The Common Place sink?)

Leeds has a large Traveller community, who like Travellers, Gypsies and Roma throughout Europe, get little or no respect. Despite being persecuted by the Nazis, and in spite of their recognised status under British race laws, they are still widely discriminated against and are subject to racial abuse and racist violence. They are perhaps the last group to be seen as a legitimate target for racist ‘humour’ and face increasing persecution both in the UK and across Europe.

To add to their many existing woes however, Leeds Travellers now face a new and perhaps unexpected foe - This Saturday, February 26th, The Common Place, Leeds supposed ‘radical’ social centre will be hosting ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ where the same sort of sneering middle-class idiots that previously organised ‘Chav’ nights, now invite you to come and take the piss out of an invented Gypsy ‘culture’ - Which has about as much to do with real Traveller culture as the Oxbridge boat race.

So we are told to expect a night of wild music performed by fake ‘Gypsies’ such as ‘DJ Shirley B**stard’ and ‘bizarre sideshows’ presented by ‘Madame Laycock’. To further take the piss guests are told to dress in their ‘wildest attire’ – presumably like ‘real’ Gypsies. Can’t you just imagine the sneering of art-school racists attempting to caricature people they clearly see as some sort of circus act?

The Common Place should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves for accepting a racist event which seeks to demean and belittle a minority group who already suffer widespread persecution. The Bookings Collective should be forced to resign for their insensitivity and made to attend Racial Awareness classes and the organisers of the event should be banned from future use of the building.

Despite already receiving complaints from members of Leeds Traveller community and from other Common Place users, the event is still scheduled to go ahead. So we are going to have to teach the organizers something that forms a part of real Gypsy culture, the constant threat of eviction. We are calling on all anti-racists, antifascists, activists, Common Place members, Travellers, and anyone who is sickened by the sneering racism of this event to help stop it taking place. Please come and show your opposition to the event and stand in solidarity against racism in all its forms.

PICKET AGAINST ANTI-TRAVELLER RACISM AT THE COMMON PLACE

SATURDAY 26TH FEBRUARY 7.30PM

THE COMMON PLACE, WHARF STREET (OPPOSITE THE ‘DUCK & DRAKE’ PUB), CENTRAL LEEDS


‘Gypsy Nightmare’ contact:  mildred_star@hotmail.com

Common Place: 0845 345 7334  info@commonplace.org.uk

You can also complain to Leeds Racial Equality Council at:  leedsrec@btinternet.com

Please forward as widely as possible on lists, Facebook, Twitter, MySpace, etc.

No Racism at The Common Place
- Homepage: http://northern-indymedia.org/articles/1409

Additions

comment transferred from northern imc:

24.02.2011 12:35

As someone who has help out (only very little) at the Common Place I find this article hard reading. The main reason the Common Place is going is so that Common Conversation has a home, a place giving free english lessons to refugees. If you have come to Common Conversation and seen the 50 or so people eating and chatting away with bus fares paid for than you will know how important the space can be. At most meetings there are about 5 people who stay up late on weekends trying to keep it running. I would love for someone to come to a meeting an raise these points but this feels more like a smear than an opportunity to engage. The bookings collective has two exhausted volunteers.

If more people were involved then we might have noticed that this event was controversial and had productive dialogue early on. I think there are lots of issues this raises and we could certainly have been dealt it better but the Common Place needs energy to be able to do this. Not an excuse but we are fighting a £15 000 court fee, environmental health threatening to close us down and down and only a handful of volunteers. We are also trying to deal fallout from having a cop as our company directors.

paster

reposted from northern indymedia

24.02.2011 13:54

as someone involved in an autonomous social centre that is part of the same uk wide network as the common place i am both angry, disgusted and so very very despairing of this.

having known that the common place was financially struggling, i had previously been feeling quite sad at the potential loss of an autonomous space in leeds, and another one gone in the uk. but really, my sympathy and desire to help support the common place has been completely destroyed by this.

across the rest of the uk there are people working incredibly hard right now to mobilise for the upcoming eviction of dale farm, and within this to counter the virulent racism and stigmatising of gypsy and traveller communities across the world. and autonomous social centres are playing a key role in being part of uk wide radical infrastructure offering a home to events, meetings, mobilisations on this matter.

i cannot accept the comments made my nab. this just seems to be classic racism deflection. yes, the common place is skint, yes, there are environmental health problems, yes, there was a cop. these are facts, not excuses. and placing them within this context merely serve to shift attention from calling racism, racism.

equally, of course nobody would want the common conversations project to completely fall apart in leeds. but again, this does not mean that we should continue to support the common place. if people think the project is really that important, it will find a new home. and politically, using one "minority" group's needs to excuse the stereotyping of another "minority" group is deeply suspicious. capitalism pits "us" against "them" continously in order to create hierarchies and divisions.. we must refuse to play this game in any form.

this situation is more than "controversial", and it only ever needs one person to call out racism, and say no to an event of this kind happening.

not being based in leeds i cannot comment on how the community there should manage this situation. and in terms of the political positioning of the common place, it is evident that things have not been going well for a really really long time. maybe it's time to let one thing go, and for a new centre with considered politics, effort and community support to fill its place....

paster

Apology

24.02.2011 14:53

Hello,

We are really sorry for offending the Gypsy and Traveller community and everyone else who has been offended by the event title and event 'A Gypsy Nightmare'. The title or night has nothing to do with targeting the gypsy and traveller community. It's called a 'gypsy nightmare' because it's trying to describe the music we play and the other bands at the event. In the past we have been described as Gypsy Music many times in reviews and so have the other bands.

When we named the night we just thought about this musical link and I suppose the Romanticism of Eastern Europe back in 1400's. It is a one off event to raise funds for Royal Park School to stay open. An event we were hoping would make people enjoy the music we play and have some fun. Some fun at nobody else's expense. I know it's at a very late stage but we want to change the name to 'Madam Laycock presents...' and apologise for any offence caused to anyone. We have been in contact with GATE apologising and explaining why we chose the name.

Sincerely Sorry,

Madam Laycock and her Dabeno Pleasures

Madam Laycock and her Dabeno Pleasures (from Northern)
- Homepage: http://northern-indymedia.org/articles/1409#comment-353

Apology

24.02.2011 17:38

Apology

The CommonPlace would like to apologise for not acting earlier with regard to the racist implications of this event. We are happy to see an apology and explanation from the promoters, and see this as a sincere willingness to make amends

The promoters have responded to complaints and concerns they have received regarding the way the event is represented on their advertising. They have recognised, as have we, how it could give the wrong, and wholly unintended, impression. They are also considering splitting the funds raised from the event with a traveller support group, as suggested by one person who raised a complaint.

The name of the event has been changed and there is an open meeting tonight (8pm) to try and decide what else needs to be done.

Please read the full text here:
 http://www.thecommonplace.org.uk/component/content/article/218-apology-qgypsy-nightmareq-event.html

The Commonplace
mail e-mail: info@thecommonplace.org.uk
- Homepage: http://www.thecommonplace.org.uk/

Divide and Conquer

25.02.2011 00:45

I work for Leeds GATE (see web link) and a few weeks ago I emailed the organisers of this event about the flyer I had seen in my local. I outlined the dreadful health status and homeless situation which Leeds Gypsies and Travellers face (a life expentency of 50) and spoke about the offence that could be caused. I got a good positive response from the organisers, who appologised. I do believe that they did not intend any offence by the title & theme of this night, ill-conceived though it clearly was.

We deal with Leeds City Council evicting families with babies, old people(many leeds born and bred) who have no safe place to put their caravan. Leeds has one Traveller site, which is full with a long waiting list. To live in a house for many of these people would be like a prison sentence.

I am amazed, impressed and encouraged to see such passion here backing the Gypsy Traveller cause in the Leeds area. However I am also suspicious that some are jumping on this cause in order to have a dig at the Common Place. Where are you when our families are being evicted? Where are your comments to the YEP when they publish a racist article? For years we have felt quite alone in this battle and not been backed (actively) by the left in Leeds.

So if you would like more information on how to help the cause and join 'Friends Of GATE' newsletter mailout, please contact me.

To Mark, all I can assume is that your wife is not from the Leeds area. I think Leeds people have risen above much of the divison between Gypsies and Irish Travellers, many families are married in to each other and English and Irish get on very well. How dare you say that Irish Travellers are just people who turn their hand to anything, what do you mean? 'Tinkers?' 'Settled people who came out of their houses during the Potato Famine?' These are total fallacies but all too commonly believed. Irish Travellers also have a rich history dating back over 1000 years, Gypsies originated from south central Pakistan (then India) and they were part of an army, not evicted from their land. Please don't start bring in divisions between the two groups, which I fear that is something that has held back the Traveller Civil Rights Movement for years.

(By the way, as I'm sure most of you are aware, 'Travellers' as the umbrella term should have a capital 'T', as should 'Gypsies' )

Thanks again to all those supporting us.

Claire,

Leeds Gypsy and Traveller Exchange

 http://www.grtleeds.co.uk/information/GATE.html

Claireblue
mail e-mail: claire@leedsgate.co.uk
- Homepage: http://www.grtleeds.co.uk/information/GATE.html

A response

25.02.2011 12:10

I am one of the people outraged by the promotion of this event at The Common Place and the original poster. I can assure some posters that I do not sit at home all day on the internet since I do not have a home internet connection and had to walk two miles to make my post yesterday. As an active antifascist I certainly have better things to do than confronting lazy racist stereotyping at an event at a supposedly ‘radical’ social centre, and am sickened to have to do so. It’s not so long ago that I had to speak to someone previously involved in running The Commonplace about using the phrase ‘dirty pikey’.

Claire, I don’t know where you have got your suspicions about the hard-working anti-racists concerned about this event, but I hope that you will lay them aside. As for myself, I was fighting with council workers evicting Travellers as a teenager in Sheffield in the 1970’s. I have shared prison cells with Travellers, count them among my close friends, and my former partner is a Traveller. Like myself, she is also a Common Place member and an antifascist, and is absolutely livid about this and similar events. Unfortunately she is out of the country until Sunday, but I’m sure you’ll be hearing from her when she returns (she used to work at Cottingley Advice incidentally). The organizers of this event may have apologised to you when you complained to them several weeks ago, and you have not been the only person to complain, but they carried on promoting their event in exactly the same form as before. It was only when threatened with disruption to their event that they began to reconsider the wisdom of choosing such an offensive name. Despite apologising and saying that they won’t use the name ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ on the night, the event seems to be the same as before, complete with ‘gypsy DJ Shirley B**tard’.

The decision to host ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ at The Common Place was apparently taken by only one or two people, so for them to personalise this issue and to try and hide behind The Common Place, claiming that opposition to a blatantly offensive event is “an attack on The Common Place” or “a smear” is pathetic. I was one of the first members of The Common Place, and I imagine that most Common Place members are as appalled by the idea of a ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ as I am. The attempts by some posters on this thread to hide behind the people who use Common Conversation remind me of racist comedian Jim Davidson’s references to his mate ‘Chalky’. Common Conversation is run autonomously by hard working people who are nothing to do with this, anymore than those who attend it are. All right-thinking people would be disgusted by this event.

It would be good to see a sincere apology from The Common Place Bookings Collective for the offence they have caused, but for me the one so far offered agreeing with their mates the organizers is more about self-justification than contrition and it smacks of arrogance and even deceit rather than sincerity. The people concerned seem more bothered about being called on their behaviour rather than their behaviour itself. Let’s put this event in context, The Common Place have in the past blocked both an antifascist film day and an antifascist social, yet they were happy to accept an event called ‘Gypsy Nightmare’, they promoted it in all its offensive glory on the Common Place website and garish posters bearing the name were prominently displayed around the building, to claim the event somehow “fell through the cracks” is rubbish. Just how stupid would you have to be to think that an event called ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ would NOT cause offence? Everyone I know has reacted with immediate horror to this, and we’re supposed to be the ‘thick’ ones. Now we are being patronised for not seeing that it was all just a silly misunderstanding?

The language of the apology from the organizers at least sounds more contrite, but they had the opportunity weeks ago to amend the offensive name and nature of this event and chose to keep advertising it regardless. Are they saying that their music, the least offensive thing about the event, is a ‘nightmare’? Is ‘nightmare’ just a bland and random word or a word linked to 1400’s ‘Romanticism’? More likely, one of their number has been watching too much racist stereotyping on TV. Not every person who uses racist language or imagery does so with hatred in their heart, but it does not alter the fact of what they’ve done. This sort of lazy cultural stereotyping is nothing new and certainly not confined to Travellers. People should not have to be challenged about it, they should educate themselves. They are using what is supposed to be a ‘political’ and ‘safe’ space afterall.

Yesterday, I heard a lot of ‘How could we/they possibly be racist’ from supposedly educated people who should know better. Racism is racism whether it involves your friends or not and it should ALWAYS be challenged, as should the belittling and lazy stereotyping involved in this and other events. You shouldn’t need to be called on this.

Where the money made from this event goes is largely irrelevant, but if the organizers are ‘considering’ donating money to a Traveller support project they have been slow to actually make any commitment. I suggested that they should be making such a donation when I spoke to the author of their statement before it was issued yesterday. If the organizers have belatedly discovered something of the reality of being a Gypsy in Leeds and are genuinely willing to play a proper respectful benefit fair play to them. However, this night is an abomination, the apologies offered so far are way too little too late. They have caused deep offense and they continue to be offensive, and this event should in my view continue to be opposed.


Mark Barnsley

Leeds GATE

25.02.2011 14:01

Leeds GATE have certaily NOT offered our full support to the night, as stated in my comment above we raised our concerns, we felt that they had been listened to and in light of this being a charity fund raiser we were satisfied that the organisers had not meant to cause offence.

The organisers of the event are also NOT working with GATE to create a future funding event, this is not true.

I will paste the email conversation we had about a week and a half ago below..... Representatives of GATE will be outside the venue tonight and look forward to talking to all those involved, we were unable to make the meeting last night at such short notice.



....with the last one first (obviously) here is the email conversation


Hello,

Thank you. I've had a look at the organisation, I really like the culture section and the Childrens writing and poetry and what your organisation is doing. Did you also do the TV Documentary? If you ever want us to do any gigs for you, please ask. And sorry again for offending anyone.

Yours,
Mildred




--- On Wed, 16/2/11, Claire Graham wrote:

From: Claire Graham
Subject: RE: Gypsy Nightmare
To: "Madam Laycock"
Date: Wednesday, 16 February, 2011, 9:54

Hi Mildred, thank you for your quick and honest reply. I am aware of Gypsy music and understand how yourselves have been connected with it in. Thanks for taking on the points I have raised. Here is a link that tells you a little more about the community in Leeds  http://www.grtleeds.co.uk/information/GATE.html


Claire Graham (Advocacy Development Worker)
Leeds Gypsy and Traveller Exchange
Ground Floor, Crown Point House
169 Cross Green Lane
Leeds
LS9 0BD
Tel. 01132009042
07967679892

From: Madam Laycock [mailto: madam_laycock@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 16 February 2011 00:16
To:  info@thecommonplace.org.uk; Claire Graham
Subject: Re: Gypsy Nightmare

Hello Claire,

I'm really sorry for offending you, others and your organisation. The title or night has nothing to do with targeting the gypsy and traveller community. It's called a 'gypsy nightmare' because it's trying to describe the music we play and the other bands at the event. In the past we have been described as Gypsy Music many times in reviews.

When we named the night we just thought about this musical link and I suppose the Romanticism of Eastern Europe back in 1400's. It is a one off event to raise funds for Royal Park School and if we plan another event at a later date we will think about using a different title as we really don't want to offend anyone.

Sincerely Sorry,

Mildred
Madam Laycock and her Dabeno Pleasures


This is a link to a quick explanation of Gypsy Music,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsy_style


--- On Tue, 15/2/11, Claire Graham wrote:

From: Claire Graham
Subject: Gypsy Nightmare
To:  madam_laycock@yahoo.co.uk,  info@thecommonplace.org.uk
Date: Tuesday, 15 February, 2011, 16:58

Dear Madam Laycock, Dear Common Place,

I am writing to express my anguish for a night I saw advertised in my local pub last week. I do not wish to criticise your work I am aware of the fantastic work the Common Place does and that the evening is a much needed fundraiser for Royal Park School. I do however want to express my disappointment at the way ‘Gypsy’ has been used to advertise the above night.

Leeds GATE are one of very few voluntary sector organisation across the country that work with English Gypsies and Irish Travellers (both recognized ethnic groups Race Relations Amendment Act 1996 & 2000). As you probably already know the communities are faced with daily misunderstanding and stereotype. In 2006 GATE carried out a census in Leeds with over 1000 community members which found a life expectancy of 50 years of age. The community also suffer from high infant mortality and increased mental and physical health difficulties.

We do an awful lot of work trying to get the settled population ‘on our side’ lobbying the councils and local MPs to provide sites to deal with homeless families and dispel myths.

I believe the media has a lot to answer for with regards to many of these issues and I also believe that our fellow organizations with left leanings should shoulder some of the responsibility in challenging widely held poorly informed beliefs. ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ conjures up images of the exotic, other, the outsider, dark, mysterious, even dangerous. I don’t think its appropriate. I have also shown the flyer to a few community members who would agree.

I just wanted to raise this with you for consideration before you would go ahead and organize another night.

I would also appreciate an acknowledgement of this email, perhaps with your thoughts on the matter.

Claire Graham (Advocacy Development Worker)
Leeds Gypsy and Traveller Exchange
Ground Floor, Crown Point House
169 Cross Green Lane
Leeds
LS9 0BD
Tel. 01132009042
07967679892

Claireblue
mail e-mail: claire@leedsgate.co.uk

Let this be the end of all false speculation.

25.02.2011 18:34

To clarify re: GATEFriday, 25 February, 2011 15:23
From: "Madam Laycock" View contact details
To:  cpbookings@yahoo.co.uk,  jess@qw6.net
Cc:  Claire@leedsgate.co.uk
Hello,

Please could we just clarify that following a comment left on Indymedia which claimed GATE are fully backing this event and planning future events with Madam Laycock,

Madam Laycock did not post this comment. GATE do not back this event.

GATE will be represented by Claire on Saturday evening, who is welcome at the event where she will have literature about the organisation and happy to discuss any issues with anyone attending.

No future plans have been discussed or made between Madam Laycock and GATE. However, both are looking to take the positives from this situation, and will encourage others to do so.

Many thanks,

Madam Laycock

Mildred (Madam Laycock and her Dabeno Pleasures)

Event planned for Saturday 26th February

25.02.2011 21:47

This event has been cancelled. 
Serious complications have arisen at the last minute which we feel cannot be dealt with in the time available.
We hope to work closely with the promoters in the future on an exciting and inclusive event. 
We also hope to be able to help raise funds for Royal Park Consortium, and be in more frequent contact from now on with Leeds Gypsy and Traveller Exchange (GATE).

proc
- Homepage: http://www.thecommonplace.org.uk/component/content/article/219-event-planned-for

We fucked up about the proposed event "Gypsy Nightmare"

26.02.2011 11:24

As one of the Commonplace organising collective that night I wish to apologise not dealing with this matter earlier. I was at the meeting on Thursday and can confirm we were told Gate were behind the event. We were lied to on that night!

When the organising collective found out they had been lied to, by someone going round to GATE and checking personally, the process to get agreement to cancel the event was started immediately. No one tried to keep the event going. They all thought that 'we' had been lied to by the promoters so the event was off.

The first I knew about problems about the event was an email sent to the leedssocialcentre list on the morning of the 24th February with the general meeting that evening. Get in touch earlier if you have problems with a proposed event held at the Commonplace rather than leaving it to "the last minute". If you think 'our' overall politics' stink get more involved rather than sniping.

Dave

GPD

Comments

Hide the following 92 comments

I'll be there

24.02.2011 10:40

It's not the first time the Common Place or the arrogant people running the event havesailed close to the wind with events of this kind. In this case they havewell and truly crossed the line.

Antifascist

fairground nightmare...

24.02.2011 11:23

I agree that the use of the coupling of the words "gypsy" and "nightmare" is a very poor choice... urely someone connected with the common place should have recognised that and suggested a change?

the details of the night, seem to be themed around a old fashioned fair, rather than anything to do with gypsies ("showmen" and gypsies (romany or irish travellers)) are not the same thing - however - to be balanced there is nothing specifically insulting to gypsies here, other than the title of the night itself.

however, with the daft and inappropriate title the promoters and the venue bring trouble upon themselves.

bad name...

Name

24.02.2011 11:53

There is in fact an age-old antipathy between gypsies and circus people, the latter of whom were granted camping rights. However there is more than the stupid name which makes this event offensive. These people have no right to mock someone else's culture, particularly that of a race of people under widespread attacks. The fact that it is in a social centre makes it even worse, Travellers should be welcomed into our spaces not ridiculed.

Bob

With "gypsy DJ Shirley Bastard"

24.02.2011 12:06

Yeah, nothing racist about this is there?!

Sickening

Royal Park School too??

24.02.2011 12:20

This cannot come as a surprise from the Common Place 'administrators'. And according to Madam Laycock web page

 http://www.myspace.com/madamlaycockandherdabenopleasures

all profits going to Royal Park School...are they 'in this together' ???

an on on

Idiots!

24.02.2011 12:22

Is the same bookings collective who tried banning anti-fascist events a couple of years back?

af

As above.

24.02.2011 12:25

This is pretty insensitive at the least.

Perhaps next week: 'A Jewish nightmare'.

Grim.

This isn't channel 4.

About time

24.02.2011 12:44

Glad this is getting raised, whoever organised this club night appears to be completely clueless. Fuck cultural appropriation, depressing that the Commonplace didn't call this out when it was first booked.

Sort it out!

-------------------------------------------------------

Also worth looking at is Leeds Uni's 'Disco Partizani' night, which features a fortune teller and cheap entry for people in 'gypsy' fancy dress!

They suggest

"*Costume optional - take your pick...
Guys and girls = dark trousers, light shirt, trouser braces, cap/ trilby; punk/ ska; circus/ (sad) clown chic, make-up; any Eastern European dress
Girls = gypsy skirts, headscarves, golden earrings, coinbelts."
(Check out Photos below to get a feel.)

Leeds

Not surprised, but not hard to sort out.

24.02.2011 13:18

Haven't they apologised and changed the name yet? Perhaps 50% of the takings should now go to a gypsy related group and 50% to Royal Park.

Nothardtosortout

Roya Park school

24.02.2011 13:30

It is despicable that the ignorant racists organizing this event are hiding behind charity, much like the 'Chav' nights the rich held a few years ago. Also reminds me of the students who used to sell booklets of vile racist, sexist and homophobic 'jokes' for charity. And Paster - Your entire comment says NOTHING. Don't hide behind Common Conversation to excuse the offensive nature of this event. Do you really expect Common Place members to support events like this?

CP Member

This event cannot go ahead

24.02.2011 14:03

Not every racist is intentionally racist, and the people organizing this may not have intended to cause the deep offence they clearly have. That is no excuse though, the name of this night alone would cause most people to shudder. That it did not to the organizerr should be a deep source of concern to them. They have to take responsibility for the offence they have caused and cancel this event.

Chapeltown Militia

More racism from the common place?

24.02.2011 14:26

Does the person from the common place really think the asylum seekers who use cc would be any less disgusted by this event than the rest of us? Do you really think that you are going to get away with this? Think again!

@

Apology

24.02.2011 14:50

IF the organisers have apologised they've been very slow to do so and only in the face of rising public anger. If the event goes ahead it will be full of the same stupid twats who would have come anyway, to see DJ Bastard and prance around pretending to be their fucked-up idea of gypsies. The posters that brought them there will still be identical. And in any case I'm not seeing any apology displayed prominently anywhere. Why should we constantly have to challenge fuckwits like this about their offensive behaviour and language?

Not happy

Apology

24.02.2011 15:08

You can see the sort of slippery bastards at work by the selective nature of the additions above. That apology is fucking lame and the offensive name and poster are still over the internet. Not good enough.

BB

Sod the apology

24.02.2011 15:11

'Madame Debano' has still got the poster up on her webpage. You are just taking the piss.

Tom

calm and reasonable response

24.02.2011 15:24

It's important to remember that indymedia is a rumourmill, that anyone can post, and that people say things that are, at least, a little misleading. (the 'chav' party refered to was an entirely different bunch of people, and a private party not a public event. the term 'middle class' is laughable when refering to the band members, some of whom are working class Eastern Europeans. and finally, the tired story about antifascist stuff being banned was 1 person with pacifist ideology, who everyone else disagreed with.)

it's also easy to get carried away on a tide of emotion about language and it's inappropriate use. however, comments such as:
"The Bookings Collective should be forced to resign for their insensitivity and made to attend Racial Awareness classes and the organisers of the event should be banned from future use of the building."

should suggest to us that this is not only a particularly personal attack on The Common Place but an emotive response in the line of purging and political purity. i hate to use the Daily Mail term 'political correctness gone mad', but surely suggesting such extreme measures - if they were meant seriously - are only counterproductive to more generalised struggle. This is not the same as confronting fascism on the streets, and nor should it be treated with such virulently aggressive terms. this was a misguided but fairly common type of event to be put on by a range of venues. Threatening action on it, rather than talking to organisers seems to me like point scoring and posturing rather than a genuine desire to fight racism.
It is obvious to me, through knowing wtih the Common Place and the bookings collective and this band, (as well as with the people calling for action on it) that this was by no means an intentional racism, that indymedia was perhaps the last port of call for a place to deal with this, that confronting active racism is a very different thing to dealing with internalised and unintentional racism, the same as with sexism and homophobia.
it's good to talk....

robespierre

Would Royal Park School welcome travellers?

24.02.2011 15:42

This event not only should be cancelled, no further support should be provided to the Royal Park School group, so far they are keeping silent and silence is consent.
Would Royal Park School welcome travellers?
I guess not!

Dello

Apologism more like

24.02.2011 15:48

Sorry, but I just see that apology as a convenient piece of revisionism. The politics has been missing from the CP for a long-time and it is overrun with the sort of arty idiots that wouldn't give the casual racism of this event a second thought. As has been said the offensive title is all over the internet and it will attract the same casual racists who would have come anyway. It is too little too late, nobody associated with this event can be excused.

Pissed-off activist

Racism is wrong

24.02.2011 15:48

Racism is wrong and should be stopped. Education and understanding root causes are important but racism also should be confronted. This event has was advertised misguidedly. Attacking the band and everyone else involved is also wrong. They are working to try to correct the mistakes, are you going to let them? Or are you going to keep attacking them? Have you ever made a mistake?

I make mistakes

To Robespierre

24.02.2011 15:53

Correction to...
'antifascist stuff being banned was 1 person with pacifist ideology, who everyone else disagreed with.'

--- 1 person proposed and the rest of them agreed. Only one person disagreed with it and that's why it the pro fascist motion went through. And by reading the minutes we all know who they were.



Anon

FFS

24.02.2011 16:01

Calling for a boycott on the Royal Park School project is ridiculous! For all anyone knows they don't even know the details of this benefit! If someone offers to do a benefit, then a group would normally say 'nice one, cheers!'. It doesn't mean they know all the details of very band playing or the title of the gig. Even if they do, their 'silence' could just mean they have better things to do than look at indymedia (which lets face it is mostly a wast of cyber space). If they have seen these posts, then they would presumably have to have a meeting/group discussion in order to make a proper response?

As for the CP having 'lost its politics'. I am ot be biggest fan of the place, nor most of the other social centres up and down the country, but it has already been pointed out above that only a handful of people are running the place!

Someone

calm down dears...

24.02.2011 16:12

I think a little perspective is needed here, and maybe everyone needs to take a deep breath. It is easy to sit behind a computer with the wealth of the internet at your fingertips and pass judgement, so this is specifically aimed at those who are or have been involved in a social centre.

Trying to lay the entire societal prejudice towards gypsy and traveller communities at the door of the common place is both misguided and without a real basis as an argument. Those involved with social centres generally don't put on the majority of events that happen there. They provide a space, make sure the bar is stocked and that the political atmosphere is welcoming to newcomers, encouraging of those who try to help and available to as diverse a range of groups as possible.

This isn't an exact science and mistakes are frequently made. Think Mark Stone at the Sumac centre, Lynn Watson at the CP etc. It is also true that those who do the most make the most mistakes, and are most often the target of criticism. The people who have remained actively involved at the Common Place are extremely hard working, and have kept the space available against all the odds for many years. And there have been many odds.

From my experience, if someone asks to use the space I am involved in, we do a quick check what kind of event it is and who will benefit from it. In this case, I imagine the answer was something along the lines of "it's a benefit for a local school that was occupied by it's local residents in protest at its planned demolition and that is now being turned into an open autonomous space. There will be some bands playing and things like that"

At this point, our members would of course have given the thumbs up and the people organising it would have gone away and done their thing. What we wouldn't do is run around demanding to know the fine details of the night, check all the posters and demand to know the name of the night in advance. This isn't because we don't care, just that our attention is generally elsewhere from that point on.

If howeverit was brought to our attention that the event had a racist undertone (or sexist, homophobic etc) then of course the event would be cancelled after ascertaining the facts. This happened recently here where a band was scheduled to play, and it was discovered that several of their members were formerly active as nazis. This is without question.

So the question to ask before attacking the common place is, were they informed about the nature of the event and the offensive nature before this got posted into the middle of yet another indymedia witch hunt. If it is the case that they were and didn't care then yes questions need to be asked. If it is a simple case of not having it brought up in a way that they could actually do something about it, then what is the value in doing the polices work for them by targeting them.

Also, asking whether Royal Park School were somehow complicit - how many benefit gigs happen around the country every week by well meaning people trying to help out a group or project they believe in - are they all complicit and responsible for every one. We held a prisoner support cafe last week, is the prisoner we supported responsible for what we chose to put on the menu?

All I am saying is - calm down a little and if you have issues with the way your local social centre is being run, the way to deal with that is to go down, get involved and put some of the time and energy you have into making it better. This is 100% more helpful than sitting behind a computer screen anonymously and trying to get it shut down no?

We can build a world without racism, intentional or otherwise, but it is going to take a hell of a lot of hard work from everyone. For that I salute the volunteers of the Common Place as despite this minor slip up, they have done more than most people I know in the area (by a long margin) to encourage community relations across all cultural divides and to educate people about racism and the negative impact it has on our communities.

This is one slip up. Let them learn from it and make things better next time please. Also, offering to help them to do that would be ideal.

Social centre volunteer

Keep calm everyone...

24.02.2011 17:07

Look, this was a stupid mistake, and yeah it does reflect a fucked up tendency within the scene around racism, but please let's have some perspective on this. Did the people talk to the organisers first or did they just jump to posting something on Indymedia completely outraged, cos it certainly feels a little bit like some people at home with too much time infront of a computer, a grudge against The Common Place and a lack of communication skills.

I'm not defending it, but they've apologised, and surely we can all calm down now and have a sensible discussion around it and the issues it raises. As for the school, and suggestions of re-education classes for people, FFS guys... some of you really are sounding like the anarchist equivalent of The Daily Mail.



Outraged of Tunbridge Wells

Shifting the blame

24.02.2011 17:34

Robespierre, what a disingenuous post, trying to shift the blame rather than take responsibility. 'Chav' parties were held frequently by the sneering middle and upper classes around the UK, it seems to me they had much in common with this event. As for the CP's track record on antifascism, it is appalling, when was the last antifascist event there? Don't blame one person for the apathy and cowardice of many. To suggest that an attack on racism is an 'personal' attack on the Common Place is disgusting. Your talk about challenging racism being 'political correctness gone mad' does put you firm and square in the Right-wing Daily Mail camp. Do you have any other racist cliches up your sleeve I wonder, perhaps you think those objecting to this event 'have a chip on their shoulders'? What would you know about 'confronting racism'? Clearly nothing, you are an apologist for it.

Antifascist

Not helping

24.02.2011 18:53

Personally I differentiate between this gig and the Common Place, but the sickening and patronising apologism of some recent posters does not help their case, particularly when some clearly know little about the place. An 'available space' my arse! Available for a few maybe, but not for most even in the Leeds activist scene. There is a small clique running the place because the cop has left and the others hang onto power like Stalin and are a fucking nightmare to deal with. As for them not knowing about the nature of the event there's a full description on their website and posters were all over the building until they got ripped down last weekend. The event organisers started receiving complaints soon after, with no effect at all. The reason this event was going on is quite simple the organisers and their mates at the CP have SHIT POLITICS.

Disillusioned

Offence, hmm

24.02.2011 19:16

As someone who is married to a Roma Gypsie, I can tell you that what has caused most offence is to classify Roma Gypsies as the same racial group as Travellers, as my wife does not write, I will explain on her behalf;
Romani people were dispersed (cleansed) from India in to northern Europe around 1750-1800, they have travelled ever since as they are expelled from their own Land, probably quite similar to Palestinians ousted from the state that likes to call itself Israel .
The Roma Gypsie have a strict ethical code of not causing harm to others and seek survival from traditional skills, the basic Romani rule is "you must put in what you take out".
Travellers are Southern Irish based people who generally turn their hand to whatever they require to survive, the only thing they have in common with Roma Gypsies is the fact that they travel.
I am quite sure the travellers are equally miffed.
A short course on cultural and racial awareness would teach you all you need to know.

Mark

Common Place apology? Or denial?

24.02.2011 19:23

So will you be telling the shitheads who turn up in trilbys and braces to fuck off? Of course not, it's business as usual. The arrogance of some of the posts shows the real feelings of the Common Place clique. Maybe if you had some political events instead of all the shite some politics might rub off on you. But I doubt you think you've anything to learn.

Jock

Common Place apology? Or denial?

24.02.2011 19:23

So will you be telling the shitheads who turn up in trilbys and braces to fuck off? Of course not, it's business as usual. The arrogance of some of the posts shows the real feelings of the Common Place clique. Maybe if you had some political events instead of all the shite some politics might rub off on you. But I doubt you think you've anything to learn.

Jock

And this

24.02.2011 19:35

I agree that it was a mistake, but it is frustrating in the general context of 'the scene' as mentioned a couple of posts above. There just seems to be a lack of general scrutiny, and an unwillingness to take on board criticism or to offer it. Usually from both sides of the argument. Casual racism, sexism toward men and women, and all the forms of discrimination need to be challenged, and people need to provide an environment where these things and others can be challenged reasonably and quickly. And accepted when necessary, we are not talking about victory and defeat, we are talking about making some progress.

Perhaps this is a case of 'not again!' at some point patience ends and the organisers of this event may have got a bit more than they usually may have reasonably expected.

People involved with any sort of event should seek a decent cross section of opinions to various projects. This not only encourages people to be involved, but also substantially lessens the opportunity for mistakes like this to happen.

...

Mark

24.02.2011 19:59

Interesting post Mark, but as I'm sure you know very much a hot potato. Most Romani Gypsies are not offended by being called Travellers and indeed many frequently define themselves thus in general society (though obviously being proud of their roots). Again, as I'm sure you know it's a regular discussion topic on Gypsy and Traveller forums. Did your missus not feel offended at being lumped in with the circus people?!

Sam Lee

Mark, you seem to be insinuating that Irish Travellers/Gypsies are......

24.02.2011 20:03

Less worthy than Roma Gypsies can you explain?

Anarchist

Fellow Travellers

24.02.2011 21:06

I know two long-standing Leeds activists who are from Traveller backgrounds (one Irish Traveller one Gypsy - both use the T word). At least one has been pissed off by 'Gypsy' held in the past at the common place and both are angry about this latest turn of events. I doubt an apology will make much difference to how either of them feel about the common place, but I hope they have felt supported by their fellow activists who did see the racism and lazy stereotyping inherent in this event.

Old git

Maybe its a generational thing

24.02.2011 21:35

My great grandparents came over from Europe and my grandpa wrote books about our family. We were always Gypsys, but we were also travellers, and it was the word generally used from my childhood on, even in Kent where we were almost exclusively Gypsies. I think it is maybe different for the young people, though of course theres plenty of intemarriage to, thats not new. Travellers never have it easy and times are getting worse. Stupid things like this just make it harder for us. And by the way some Gypsies can be as prejudiced as other folk, there's good and bad in all peoples.

S

Brief response to the Common Place non-apology

24.02.2011 22:51

That is a rather sanctimonious and uncandid response from the Common Place, and it displays an arrogance which underpins this whole shoddy affair. To try and pretend that the serious concerns raised were without foundation is a serious error of judgement. You are the idiots who fucked up, so please don't patronise the rest of us. BTW is "gypsy DJ Shirley Bastard" still performing? Next time take the piss out of your own fucking culture.

Caravan Club

Raising funds to help a community!!

25.02.2011 00:45

Where ever you are all from, what ever your background, what ever colour your skin is, whatever colour your boots are it doesn't matter..most people who tend to use social centres for anything is to raise awareness of a particular project/event/workshop whatever to help build better communites. This event "a gypsy nightmare" is here to raise awareness about a School Building Leeds City Council promised to re-open as a Community space 7 years ago now. Some of the people from Madam Laycock happen to have lived in that Community and some helped out in the occupation of the building in 2009. Royal Park School Committee or whatever/whoever probably don't even know indimedia exists, that the name of a fundraising event has caused any offence and are having to rally at a council meeting themselve to try and get court costs dropped/paid by the council from members of the Community standing in court. Would this have even got to this point if it had been held in the local pub? Where the Social centres are a great space for all kinds of Activists,Anarchists what ever political/non polital groups (I don't really know and don't want to offend anyone by sayin the wrong names), it seems the very people you are trying to educate/inform/discuss with are now being persecuted and will probably never have chance or even want to, use the space again. I think this in itself is a classic example of fighting each other on the same team. These people doing the night and the Common Place are trying to help raise funds for a Community. There is no laughing at anyones expense, intention to laugh at anyones expense or anything. Just an Innocent fundraising event for a much need space in a community suffering the Cuts to come already. Please please support this event. By stopping it or causing people not to attend you're not only hurting the Common place and promoters but another Community and that is not what anyone wants. Ultimately we are all here in whatever capacity to help build a better future.

Ali

deeply shocked

25.02.2011 00:47

This racist event is a real shocker, especially coming from an alternative space. They are openly mocking a racial minority with sterotpyes. Whats all this with DJ B*stard? Are they saying that Gypsies are all b*stards because they dont necessarily use state marriages? It delegitamises alternative citizens. We remember all this from the Third Reich. The bands playing this racist event are nothing but Nazi marching bands and the dancers are brown-shirted goose-steppers. Dont we all travel sometime? What about the posh students who take holidays abroad? Do they all wear big earings and Gypsy skirts? So why do they assume that Gypsies dress up like that? All right minded activists should oppose these events and make it clear that we wont take racism from the EDL or from posh students!

AF

re GATE:

25.02.2011 10:04

thanks for that post Claireblue

You wrote:

"a few weeks ago I emailed the organisers of this event about the flyer I had seen in my local. I outlined the dreadful health status and homeless situation which Leeds Gypsies and Travellers face (a life expentency of 50) and spoke about the offence that could be caused. I got a good positive response from the organisers, who appologised. I do believe that they did not intend any offence by the title & theme of this night, ill-conceived though it clearly was."

The Commonplace bills itself as an Autonomous Radical Social Centre, and it is concerning that it did not take steps until yesterday to rectify the impression created by an event that was widely advertised as "Freakish circus sideshow acts with live music to tantilise the senses" and called "a Gypsy Nightmare".

You have confirmed that you raised concerns about this weeks ago, and thus it does not seem surprising that someone decided to write about the matter on Indymedia when no action was taken at that time. It was only after the article appeared on Indymedia that they issued public apologies and changed the name of the event. Some posters have pointed out that this still seems too little too late.

It is also concerning that some people associated with the Commonplace are still struggling to see why offence has been caused, and are seeking to shift the blame onto the person who wrote the article.

It is also worth noting that GATE LEEDS was referenced in another comment on Northern Indymedia :  http://northern-indymedia.org/articles/1409#comment-361 which gives the impression that the original name and theme are supported by GATE LEEDS, on the basis that "a Gypsy Nightmare" can be understood to mean something other than what I believe most people would read it as. The comment ridicules those who raised concerns, and claims that another evening called 'a Gypsy Nightmare' was held in Liverpool without any problems.However I could find no evidence to back this up.

Other users of Indymedia do feel strongly about the issue of Traveler evictions, and this feature appeared on the Indymedia uk front page recently:  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2011/01/472777.html

A series of info-nights and planning meetings are being held to develop a strategy of solidarity with Dale Farm when the bailiffs move in.

I hope that GATE will consider using Indymedia to keep people informed of future evictions and events in Leeds.

Tackle racism in the movement

GATE LEEDS

25.02.2011 10:31

GATE in Leeds have offered their full support of the night and will be offering information to anyone who has a problem with a group of artists trying to raise money for their community at Royal Park School. GATE are also working with the band to create a future funding event.

Yes the name was inappropriate but it has been advertised since December and no one has ever thought anything of it because believe it or not the word 'Gypsy' is also descibed as a GENRE of music. And the word 'Nightmare' is a way of descibing something dark and imaginative. I found out that the same night was run in Liverpool last year with no problem what so ever because, maybe there the people are less bored and have more important things to target their anger at.

David.

David (repasted from Northern)
- Homepage: http://northern-indymedia.org/articles/1409#comment-361

An Axe to Grind

25.02.2011 11:39

The most telling comment in this thread is that from ClaireBlue:

"However I am also suspicious that some are jumping on this cause in order to have a dig at the Common Place. Where are you when our families are being evicted?"

The original poster is well known to have an axe to grind against the Common Place, that borders on the obsessive - for example, repeatedly claiming that militant anti-fascists were banned from using the building (even though the five people opposed to militant anti-fascists using the building all renounced their membership of the CP after an open meeting confirmed that AF groups are welcome to use the CP), and associating the CP with 'chav parties' which too my knowledge have never taken place there (but, ironically, have happened at a housing co-op in Leeds whose resource centre is frequently used by this individual!).

Whilst it is good that this incident has flagged up important issues about negative stereotyping, and good also to see that some Gypsy and Traveller organisations have had amicable dialogue with the event organisers, it's a pity some people don't have better things to do with their time than continue to attack a struggling social centre that, amongst other things, has been a second home for hundreds of destitue asylum seekers and refugees for many years.

Ex-commoner

Point missed again

25.02.2011 12:03

"It is also concerning that some people associated with the Commonplace are still struggling to see why offence has been caused, and are seeking to shift the blame onto the person who wrote the article."

is followed by a perfect example:

"Whilst it is good that this incident has flagged up important issues about negative stereotyping, and good also to see that some Gypsy and Traveller organisations have had amicable dialogue with the event organisers, it's a pity some people don't have better things to do with their time than continue to attack a struggling social centre that, amongst other things, has been a second home for hundreds of destitue asylum seekers and refugees for many years."

As was pointed out earlier:

"Does the person from the common place really think the asylum seekers who use cc would be any less disgusted by this event than the rest of us?"


As to:

"The original poster is well known to have an axe to grind against the Common Place"

As Indymedia gives people the right to post anonymously, and as the poster used the pseudonym "No Racism at The Common Place", I can only surmise that you think you know who the original poster is.

And on the basis of that suspicion you appear to be grinding your own axe.

An attempt to ban anti-fascist groups from an 'Autonomous Radical Social Centre' was bound to create some difficulties - as was holding and publicising an event called 'a Gypsy Nightmare'.

Perhaps you should think that through.

Tackle racism in the movement

Ex-Commoner

25.02.2011 12:17

As for you 'ex Commoner', this is far from the first personal and dishonest attack you've made against me. It's hardly my fault that you are widely regarded as a police agent, or that you effectively got yourself thrown out of The Common Place. Why don't you at least have the decency to sign your posts so that those Indymedia viewers who don't already know are aware who is behind this obsessive little vendetta coward?

Mark Barnsley

Antifascists at the CP

25.02.2011 13:14

There was only ONE person opposed to antifascists at the Common Place - though he was tolerated for far too long and caused a lot of trouble. Read the CP minutes or search on Indymedia for history of the affair. You are a liar as well as a coward ex-Commoner.

auntie fash

personal attack

25.02.2011 13:35

That's nice using a line of nonsense clearly fed to GATE to justify your own spiteful personal attack.

anti-racist

Leeds GATE

25.02.2011 13:38

Leeds GATE have certaily NOT offered our full support to the night, as stated in my comment above we raised our concerns, we felt that they had been listened to and in light of this being a charity fund raiser we were satisfied that the organisers had not meant to cause offence.

The organisers of the event are also NOT working with GATE to create a future funding event, this is not true.

I will paste the email conversation we had about a week and a half ago below..... Representatives of GATE will be outside the venue tonight and look forward to talking to all those involved, we were unable to make the meeting last night at such short notice.



....with the last one first (obviously) here is the email conversation


Hello,

Thank you. I've had a look at the organisation, I really like the culture section and the Childrens writing and poetry and what your organisation is doing. Did you also do the TV Documentary? If you ever want us to do any gigs for you, please ask. And sorry again for offending anyone.

Yours,
Mildred




--- On Wed, 16/2/11, Claire Graham wrote:

From: Claire Graham
Subject: RE: Gypsy Nightmare
To: "Madam Laycock"
Date: Wednesday, 16 February, 2011, 9:54

Hi Mildred, thank you for your quick and honest reply. I am aware of Gypsy music and understand how yourselves have been connected with it in. Thanks for taking on the points I have raised. Here is a link that tells you a little more about the community in Leeds  http://www.grtleeds.co.uk/information/GATE.html


Claire Graham (Advocacy Development Worker)
Leeds Gypsy and Traveller Exchange
Ground Floor, Crown Point House
169 Cross Green Lane
Leeds
LS9 0BD
Tel. 01132009042
07967679892

From: Madam Laycock [mailto: madam_laycock@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 16 February 2011 00:16
To:  info@thecommonplace.org.uk; Claire Graham
Subject: Re: Gypsy Nightmare

Hello Claire,

I'm really sorry for offending you, others and your organisation. The title or night has nothing to do with targeting the gypsy and traveller community. It's called a 'gypsy nightmare' because it's trying to describe the music we play and the other bands at the event. In the past we have been described as Gypsy Music many times in reviews.

When we named the night we just thought about this musical link and I suppose the Romanticism of Eastern Europe back in 1400's. It is a one off event to raise funds for Royal Park School and if we plan another event at a later date we will think about using a different title as we really don't want to offend anyone.

Sincerely Sorry,

Mildred
Madam Laycock and her Dabeno Pleasures


This is a link to a quick explanation of Gypsy Music,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsy_style


--- On Tue, 15/2/11, Claire Graham wrote:

From: Claire Graham
Subject: Gypsy Nightmare
To:  madam_laycock@yahoo.co.uk,  info@thecommonplace.org.uk
Date: Tuesday, 15 February, 2011, 16:58

Dear Madam Laycock, Dear Common Place,

I am writing to express my anguish for a night I saw advertised in my local pub last week. I do not wish to criticise your work I am aware of the fantastic work the Common Place does and that the evening is a much needed fundraiser for Royal Park School. I do however want to express my disappointment at the way ‘Gypsy’ has been used to advertise the above night.

Leeds GATE are one of very few voluntary sector organisation across the country that work with English Gypsies and Irish Travellers (both recognized ethnic groups Race Relations Amendment Act 1996 & 2000). As you probably already know the communities are faced with daily misunderstanding and stereotype. In 2006 GATE carried out a census in Leeds with over 1000 community members which found a life expectancy of 50 years of age. The community also suffer from high infant mortality and increased mental and physical health difficulties.

We do an awful lot of work trying to get the settled population ‘on our side’ lobbying the councils and local MPs to provide sites to deal with homeless families and dispel myths.

I believe the media has a lot to answer for with regards to many of these issues and I also believe that our fellow organizations with left leanings should shoulder some of the responsibility in challenging widely held poorly informed beliefs. ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ conjures up images of the exotic, other, the outsider, dark, mysterious, even dangerous. I don’t think its appropriate. I have also shown the flyer to a few community members who would agree.

I just wanted to raise this with you for consideration before you would go ahead and organize another night.

I would also appreciate an acknowledgement of this email, perhaps with your thoughts on the matter.

Claire Graham (Advocacy Development Worker)
Leeds Gypsy and Traveller Exchange
Ground Floor, Crown Point House
169 Cross Green Lane
Leeds
LS9 0BD
Tel. 01132009042
07967679892

Claireblue
mail e-mail: claire@leedsgate.co.uk

ps

25.02.2011 13:38

And I DON'T BELIEVE GATE are 'backing' this event.

anti-racist

DodgyDave

25.02.2011 14:18

'offering information to anyone who has a problem with a group of artists trying to raise money for their community at Royal Park School.'

Not sure anyone has a problem with raising money for Royal Park school if that's what people want to do. I don't think it is suggested anywhere that anyone necessarily has a problem with that.

'Yes the name was inappropriate but it has been advertised since December'

Perhaps, i hadn't even noticed the event was on.

'and no one has ever thought anything of it'

That's a shame.

'because believe it or not the word 'Gypsy' is also descibed as a GENRE of music.'

Wouldn't have noticed if that hadn't been in capitals.

'maybe there the people are less bored and have more important things to target their anger at.'

Yeah, this is all fairly boring. In so far as challenging lazy stereotyping goes. It's very easy to dismiss people when you don't intend to do them harm, unfortunately when you don't understand the situation you'll end up doing it anyway. Still you'll apologise at the end of the day and that'll make everything alright....

ditto

Promoted comments

25.02.2011 15:09

Please note that some recent comments have been promoted as they are direct responses to the issues raised by the article. They appear directly under the article as additions.

IMCista

GATE

25.02.2011 15:45

Maybe now you understand the dishonest people you're dealing with, they've been telling CP members and other activists GATE were backing them for days.

Caravan Club

FAO Claire

25.02.2011 16:58

Claire, it's very clear that you have been fed a load of flannel about this event. You were right to complain. They may have apologised to you, but they kept on advertising the event just as they had been before. This is not an attack on The Common Place, we are people who don't want to see these sort of dodgy nights and sloppy politics there, and some of us are Travellers too. Since at least yesterday the organizers have been spreading the story that they had the backing of GATE, the same story some earlier complainants were told. They are just desperate to stop protests spoiling their night out. This has nothing to do with 'community' or 'charity', the only 'community' the organizers are part of is the arty-farty one. Nor is the Common Centre a 'community' space, for a long time it has been a cliquey rat-infested dump that nobody uses. If you can see past the soft voices and the guile of the people soft-soaping you for your own ends you will see that. Your first instincts about this event were correct..

Leeds anti-racist

The last straw

25.02.2011 18:01

Yesterday the organizers of this were circulating a story to activists that they had the backing of GATE and that a joint statement/apology from GATE and themselves would appear in the Yorkshire Evenhng Post today. This was a cynical ploy to diffuse opposition to the event and has obviously turned out to be a complete fabrication. That they were prepared to play fast and loose with the reputation and career of Claire at GATE, who dealt with them in good faith, for me speaks volumes about the sincerity of their apology. They no longer deserve any concessions from anti-racists.

Mark Barnsley

Support

25.02.2011 19:31

Not a fan of The Guardian, but this may help a few folk understand what some of the 'fuss' is about.

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/feb/25/truth-about-gypsy-traveller-life-women

GetagripAdam

planks

25.02.2011 21:17

I wonder if the organisers are the same bunch of numpties who organised a night at the Burley sports bar , a soundsystem night of dubstep,drum and bass and ''GYPO '' music was advertised...Charming if its the same bunch of ignorant dullards ...Regards COG

concerned of gipton

GATE

25.02.2011 23:09

I'm actually pretty shocked that GATE are actually going to involve themselves with the Gypsy Nightmare event and sit among the circus acts and the clowns attending. If they think they're going to meet political activists they won't, they'll just meet the silly sods who thought Gypsy Nightmare was a great idea. They're also helping to validate an event which is opposed by people they have far more in common with. The decent thing would have been to cancel this offensive and divisive event, but then decency is not a word the people involved seem to understand. Please reconsider your position GATE.

Leeds Lad

Good Fucking Riddance!

25.02.2011 23:26

But why would anyone work with the idiot promoters again? Why not let some anti-racists organise an event?

Leeds anti-racist

If this event has been cancelled...

25.02.2011 23:45

I've organised hundreds of benefit events over the past 35 years, including several at The Common Place. I'd be more than happy to organise a proper Gypsy/Traveller support event for GATE.

Mark Barnsley

'Complications'?

26.02.2011 01:11

Would one of these 'complications' be that you have regained your sanity?

Oops!

decisions, decisions

26.02.2011 09:42

funny how when it suits the common place can take months to make a decision or issue a statement yet some of the recent ones have been taken/released like the click of a pair of castanets - anybody would think one person was taking them! how many cp members for example would trust the bunch of idiots behined this gig to put on another - take it somewhere else! and bearing in mind the shit this has caused dont you think we deserve something better than 'serious complications'? This situation has shown that there are some right wankers hiding in our movement. well done to those who exposed and opposed this racist gig.

Anarchist

A moral victory

26.02.2011 10:30

This has been a moral victory for the antiracists, not just in terms of been prepared to stand against this offensive event, but also in terms of how they have conducted the discussion, here and elsewhere. The lies and dirty tricks of their opponents - racists and racist apologists - says a lot about them.

26+6

Good

26.02.2011 11:41

If they were less stupid the organizers could have bought themselfs some kudos by claiming that they had made a mistake rather than pushing on with it n then pulling it because someone broke a drumstick or an ear-ring.

Nod

Still trying to shift the blame?

26.02.2011 11:49

"The first I knew about problems about the event was an email sent to the leedssocialcentre list on the morning of the 24th February with the general meeting that evening"

What is now known is that GATE emailed  info@thecommonplace.org.uk on February 15th. The email was very clear:

"I also believe that our fellow organizations with left leanings should shoulder some of the responsibility in challenging widely held poorly informed beliefs. ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ conjures up images of the exotic, other, the outsider, dark, mysterious, even dangerous. I don’t think its appropriate. I have also shown the flyer to a few community members who would agree."

That should surely have been enough to set the alarm bells ringing!

It is good that you acknowledge that CP 'fucked up' but it isn't on to try and make others responsible for this.

As to whoever misrepresented the GATE position at the meeting, such outrageous behaviour should not have fooled CP, who should have organised a meeting immediately when it received the email on the 15th, and GATE should have been invited at that stage.

It is CP who appears to have left things to the last minute, and it really is time for CP to take full responsibility for that.

Tackle racism in the movement

Ditto

26.02.2011 12:29

Dave: Your post starts off well, but then just descends back into self-justification. Why would anyone think Travellers would ever support an event called Gypsy Nightmare? And if this is what happened why are you still bigging up the lying organizers on your website? There were loads of complaints before a picket was organised. Take down that shit 'apology' and put up a proper one. And don't pretend this event was EVER ok. If you thought it was then you should get yourself educated. Stop trying to shift the blame and take responsibility.

Anti-racist

Ditto

26.02.2011 13:01

Dave, you're a good bloke with a big heart and the stubborness to flog a dead horse. But it really doesn't surprise me that the name of this event didn't set alarm bells ringing in your head as it would with most people. You got fucked, the Travellers have been fucked, people have had their time wasted, some have behaved like cowardly wankers, while others have just been two-faced. Well done for belatedly cancelling the event, but now just apologise and have done with it. You should haue known better but you didn't. Take all the shit off the website and don't entertain these scum again.

Anti-racist

if only

26.02.2011 13:02

all the people who have spent all this time and energy sniping and preparing to protest left their keyboards and got involved in the running of the common place. Too much jibber-jabber and not enough anything else.

me

Stereotyping

26.02.2011 13:09

On 25.02.2011 at 11:39, Ex Commoner wrote: "Whilst it is good that this incident has flagged up important issues about negative stereotyping" (before going on to suggest that people should have 'better things to do with their time' than raise it.)

Anti-Gypsy/Traveller prejudice is widespread in this society and pretty much unchecked. That the supporters of the Common Place appear willing to treat the matter as being of minor importance, whilst putting most of their energy into attempts to vilify the anti-racists who raised the matter, suggests that there is still some way to go in resolving the issue satisfactorily.

I'm not sure if Ex C thinks that there is such as a thing as 'positive stereoetyping' but it did cause me to remember an article by Rachel Morris which looked at how anti-Traveller prejudice is transmitted by the media .

The article is available as a PDF at www.law.cf.ac.uk/tlru/Tolleys.pdf.

I found the part below helpful in thinking through my own stereotyping process:

Stereotyping

‘Like fictions, they are created to serve as substitutions, standing in for what is real. They are there not to tell it like it is but to invite and encourage pretence. They are a fantasy, a projection onto the Other that makes them less threatening. Stereotypes abound when there is a distance. They are an invention, a pretence that one knows when the steps that would make real knowing possible cannot be taken or are not allowed.’15

Stereotyping is a potentially negative product of a standard mental process carried out by all humans and many animals: categorisation. We need to categorise from a very early age: which foods do I like / not like? In which environments do I feel safe / in danger? By dividing people or things into groups based on certain perceived characteristics and then creating a hierarchy of preferences to which we adapt our behaviour, we learn to find our way around a complex and occasionally dangerous world. But while useful as a means of simplifying complex things and people, stereotyping is problematic when used by adults to simplify and therefore more easily deal with things of which they are afraid and lack knowledge. If everything they read about the object of their fears and ignorance (from childhood books to adulthood newspapers) simply confirms their reductive assumptions, they are encouraged to continue in this simplistic and sometimes prejudicial thinking. Therein lies a major root of social exclusion.


Stereotypes stem from not just categorisation but evaluation of those being stereotyped. Even if there is a grain of truth in a stereotype, it may only apply to one person or a few members in a group but may disproportionately and dramatically disadvantage the whole. Yet stereotypes are difficult to get rid of as they are deeply rooted in socialisation and thought processes, and their very nature means, their strength relies on the fact that the features of the stereotyped are assumed to be fixed by nature.


Being stereotyped as, for example, ‘the typical academic’ (male, white, middle-aged) can be negative for those people who might have more difficulties being taken seriously and advancing in an academic career as a result of not fitting it. But while such difficulties can affect the path of their life, it is unlikely that they could affect their very way of life. The stereotypes moulded on Travellers lead to constant eviction, harassment, school exclusions and prejudice of an intensity bordering on hatred. ‘Negative attitudes frequently manifest themselves in the refusal to admit Travelling children or in delay or the imposition of difficult or discriminatory conditions. In some cases, threats and acts of physical violence by members of the settled community have been sufficient to deter Gypsy parents from placing their children in school’.16

The ‘typical’ Traveller?

So what are the stereotypes which play such a powerful role in propagating prejudice against Gypsies and other Travellers? Most racism consists of reducing a particular racial group to particular, stereotyped, representations. Often ‘people who are in any way significantly different from the majority – ‘them’ rather than ‘us’ – are frequently exposed to this binary form of representation. They seem to be represented through sharply opposed, polarized, binary extremes – good/bad, civilized/primitive, ugly/excessively attractive, repelling-because-different/compelling-because- strange-and-exotic. And they are often required to be both things at the same time!’.17

Travellers are in an interesting position in this respect. Unusually and often the main complaint to be found regarding Gypsies is that they do not fit the stereotype that has been carved out for them: the ‘true’ Gypsy. That they do not fit this stereotype is used to justify hatred of them and to deny them rights and access to goods and services. This ‘true, good Gypsy’ stereotype is the ‘positive’ branch, whereby they are seen as mysterious, darkly beautiful and sultry, spiritual in a naturalist fashion, fortune tellers in touch somehow with other times and dimensions, bestowing luck or curses as the mood takes them, all flashing jewellery and brightly coloured clothes and scarves (both men and women), leading a free and carefree and varied and above all romantic life which is tantalising for but unattainable by settled folk.

‘The settled population is generally intolerant of contacts and relations with nomads ... The further away the nomad is the better. When the gypsies are so far away that they verge on myth, they suddenly become alluring: handsome, artistic, living untram- melled lives, symbols of freedom’.18

This picture of Gypsies, of the ‘Romany Rye’, can be found in art and literature and music, from Austen to Van Gogh, from Bizet to Modigliani. It is for this reason that I am able to present what should be a familiar picture purely from imagination, from ‘memory’. For I too was fed on these images from a young age. What I have come to realise from my experience with reality is that these representations bear no more (and no less) of a relationship with actual Travellers than with settled people. Some are spiritual, some are sultry, some are beautiful, few could be described as carefree.19 Whatever the images may be they are not the products of memory but of imagination. Settled people draw on ‘memory’ to decide who does and does not constitute a ‘real’ and therefore marginally more acceptable Gypsy.

‘Josephine Doherty, a member of one of Britains’s [sic] last true Romany families, had dreamed of a fairy tale wedding. So her relatives organised an event fit for a princess ‘.20

It is a very real difficulty in the representation of Travellers that, as previously mentioned, few members of the press actually take the trouble to meet or talk to Travellers in constructing news stories about them. (It is a given that the person constructing the representation is more likely to faith- fully portray a person or experience with which or with whom they have had direct experience).21 So they have only their ‘memories’ to draw on. Many of these ‘memories’ consist of the other, more ‘negative’ stereotype. It is more commonly found in the press because Travellers seem to be assumed to more closely fit this type and are then penalised for not conforming to the positive construct, the ‘good’ Gypsy.

The ‘bad’ Gypsy is dirty, thieving, surviving on wits rather than skill and so necessarily living outside the mores and laws of settled society, providing a low standard of goods and services to settled people and then using nomad- ism to ‘slip the net’ of the law, scrounging and parasitic, living off the scraps and through the loopholes of settled society and taking it for what he or she can get, leaving disgusting piles of human and industrial waste on every piece of land on which he or she has settled, potentially violent, creating expense, fear and conflict by their very nature. This aspect of the so-called Gypsy character is so firmly held by settled people that ‘to gyp’ has come to mean ‘to be cheated’, as in ‘I’ve been gypped’.

Whichever stereotype is employed, or whether one is set against the other, they constitute what Barthes 22 would call a ‘cultural myth’, albeit a pervading one. To bluntly divide Gypsies into two ‘types’ and then punish them for being one and not the other may have developed as a device to combat feelings of fear and ignorance, but it can only lead to an increase in those fears among settled people and between the settled and Traveller communities. Travellers have become a sub-class because they have been placed there by another culture which fears them.

By creating categories into which we expect the world to fit neatly, we create a false and tidy world out of which some things and some people might step and transgress our contrived boundaries. Those things and people must then be stigmatised and discontinued if we are to feel safe and orderly, because they do not fit neatly into society as we like to see it. Foreigners do not fit unless they are money-spending tourists; otherwise they are asylum-seekers. Travellers do not fit because they are assumed to be nomadic, although they often move because they are forced to so by police and local authorities; and may be no more nomadic than the modern businessperson. Sometimes these ‘others’, these ‘unfitted’ people, are both foreigners and Travellers. Suffice it to say that these ‘others’ become both despised and desired, humans being drawn to that which is threatening or taboo.

It is not difficult, then, to see why and how the media plays a role in promulgating these ancient images and thus reinforcing the position of Travellers as perhaps the most maligned of minorities in Britain and in Europe. The ‘difference’ element makes good copy, makes stories that stand out from the ordinary, that always sell and stir up emotions. The plethora of stereotypes around Travellers provides writers with rich imagery and ‘hooks’ upon which they can hang a story, and readership sympathies upon which they can draw.

‘Residents quiz council – who’s moving into empty homes? ‘‘We don’t want gipsies next door’’’23

The way that Travellers are treated by society puts them into positions which tally with common views of them, lending a patina of ‘truth’ and ‘objectivity’ to the press representa- tions. For example, it is easy to sell the ‘dirty Gypsy’ image when societal dislike of Gypsies forces them to live on the margins of society, under motorways, next to sewage plants and railway lines, where no-one else wishes to live. The problems of access to health, education and stability, of over-policing, and of lack of access to land that many Travellers experience is rarely portrayed.

15. bell hooks (1992) Black Looks: Race and Representation, South End, Boston, p. 170.
16. Office for Standards in Education (Ofsted) [1996] The Education of Travelling Children: A Report from
the Office of Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Schools, reference HMR/ 12/96/NS, p. 10.
17. Stuart Hall, editor (1997) Representation: Cultural Representations and Signifying Practices, The Open
University, Milton Keynes, p. 229.
18. J-P Liegeois (1986) Gypsies: An Illustrated History, Al-Saqi, London.
19. Their very way of life is now subject to criminalisation under the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act
1994.
20. Now magazine, 25 July 1998.
21. Oscar Gandy (1998) Communication & Race: A Structural Perspective, Arnold, London, p. 97.
22. Roland Barthes (1972) Mythologies, Cape, London, pp. 114-5.
23. The Biggleswade Chronicle, Friday 16 May 1997


Tackle racism in the movement
- Homepage: http://www.law.cf.ac.uk/tlru/Tolleys.pdf.

Common Place

26.02.2011 13:33

I haven't more involved in the common place because everytime I've asked I've been told its closing down and a new place is opening up. I thought it was decided to close last September. I've been told that by cp trustees and people running the place.

CAM

Come clean

26.02.2011 14:15

Come on Dave, just admit it, you thought this was all about 'political correctness' just as you excused the racism of the bloke ranting about 'pakis' and 'foreigners' at the EF! Gathering the other year as 'a generational thing'. You've got a good heart but FFS start buying a better class of newspaper.

Antifascist

Stop dodging the issue

26.02.2011 17:59

Is the best the stupid ignorant racist apologists of the cp can do is keep hiding behind irrelevancies? Is it really surprising that new people don't want to work with you. Just admit your fuck-up without taking digs at the anti-racists who have put you to shame. This mess is nobodys fault but yours and the lying twats whose racism you accomodated. Stop clinging onto dellusion in the way you do to the only bit of power you have in your life. If you had more intelligence you'd know just how embarrassing you are.

Granny Smith

The Common Place

26.02.2011 18:46

I was at a meeting last year when the future of the Common Place was discussed. The place is hardly ever open, there are few political events, and Common Conversation on Saturday mornings could easily find another home. Critically, nobody wanted to waste time raising £15,000 to pay the Council's legal costs incurred trying to prevent the CP from regaining its lost drinks license - a court in which the ruling elite handed over the names and details of all CP members. Also, over the last few years the landlord has increasingly taken the piss. It was agreed that we wouldn't pay the council, would shut up, and there was talk about setting up somewhere better. Obviously afterwards many people lost interest in the CP, which has never really worked as a social centre anyway. What seems to have happened is that some of those in positions of responsibility decided to keep it going anyway and presumably pay the council's unjust legal bill. As with (effèctively) handing over our details to the cops, such arbitary and undemocratic decision-making hardly encourages good activists. Nor does this latest row.

A N Other

OK, deep breath everyone...

26.02.2011 19:24

Right, I'm gonna say what I think, and fuck the inevitable threats and slag-offs that'll probably come shortly afterwards... but let me clear a few things up first.... I'm an anarchist, have been involved in anti-fascist actions sometimes, and know both The Common Place and some of the people involved in this fiasco from both 'sides'.

I think the naming of the night and the general tone of it is fucked up. It trades off, and plays upto, a crap cliche of some elements of Gypsy and Traveller (or whatever people would rather call it) culture. It isn't however (deep breath everyone...), what I consider racist, and as a note, neither do any of the Gypsys or Travellers that have written comments here call it racist either. (Doesn't mean it isn't, just that maybe it needs explaining and discussing for some of us to be convinced).

I do think it's cultural appropriation though, that is, picking and choosing elements of a culture (not a race, of which Gypsy/Travellers aren't) to steal and use for your own ends. It's common, especially within the music scene (rap or hip-hop anyone?) of which this gig is a part of. It doesn't mean I think it's right, or an acceptable thing for radicals to do uncritically, but I think all the aggressive shouting about racism is mistaken and misplaced, and to be honest, just makes you/us look a bit obsessed, and with a grudge against The Common Place, who at worst I think have been a bit stupid and slow to sort it out.

I think some of the people posting here are either posting multiple posts under different names, or they've whipped up some frenzy of pure anti-racist thoughts amongst people. Either way, some of the attitudes are a little scary... bordering on some kind of anti-racist thought police, rather than any reasoned discussion or thought about it. On top if that I think the attitudes towards The Common Place, the people involved in it, and some of the people that put the gig on and the band/s, are full of bitter and bullying hatred that I think is unjustified and has less to do about this issue and more to do with a history and peoples personal grudges.

There is also an element of bulling around this, conducted by a few big, scary people in the scene. Shouting the loudest doesn't mean you're right, and just calling everyone who disagress with you a racist or an apologist for racism is a pretty lazy and stupid way to have a discussion. And please don't just shout "Well it's obvious it's racist! We don't need to explain it!" Well, actually I don't think it is so fucking obvious, and lots of people (including me) do need it explaining, so let's have the discussion. Threatening violence to people in the scene over this is, I think, pretty fucking inexcusable, and, IMO, more dodgy than the actual event itself.

Related to this, but as a slight sideline, I think there's a worrying line in the anarchist/activist scene which if you question some 'truth' you get bullied/shouted down. Anything that doesn't immediately fit into the leftist mould of agreeing uncritically with the party line on racism/sexism etc. gets slagged off pretty brutally. Understandable maybe given our history of dealing wiht these issues in our movement, but it's a slippery slope down into some paralysed scene where ideology rules over indepedent thought, and that's a place I don't want us to end up - some strange morphing of a rich, critically thinking, and questioning scene into a pathetic caricature of the worst aspects of the PC language dominated left.

I'm totally happy to hold my hands up and say that I might be completely off the mark here, and if people want to convince me that I'm either a racist or an apologist for one too, then please go ahead, I'll seriously listen and change my views if you convince me otherwise. Until then please let's stop calling the band a 'Nazi marching band and the dancers goose stepping brown shirts' - it makes you, and us all, look a bit stupid and obscures the real issues.

Waiting for the threats and slag-offs...

CP

26.02.2011 19:39

Bearing in mind we now know what happened with this, why isn't there an honest statement CP website? Also why are some of you criticising the people who exposed this instead of thanking them?

Pat

Threats?!

26.02.2011 20:08

A lot of what you say is fair enough, but when you casually throw in accusations of threats and violence when there hasn't been any of either, and making some pretty unpleasant personal smears, it makes me think that you're not worth engaging with because you're essentially dishonest. It seems to me that one side has taken a political stand in this and the other has resorted to some very underhand telling lies and personal slag-offs. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Antifascist

So obvious

26.02.2011 20:24

As is very often the way in super-clicky politicly fucked up Leeds it has not been the biggest people doing the bullying. Thats obvious even just this here let alone all the other sneaky shit.

anon

re: Waiting for the threats and slag-offs...

26.02.2011 20:24

The user name you've chosen seems intended to provoke them. It seems to be fit comfortably with the insidious campaign by the CP group to deflect the issue by making the anti-fascists the problem. Two thirds of your post, which is ostensibly about having the discussion, is a rail at the anti-fascists.

You say:

"I do think it's cultural appropriation though, that is, picking and choosing elements of a culture (not a race, of which Gypsy/Travellers aren't) to steal and use for your own ends."

Worth noting is that GATE says this on their site:

"Roma, Romany Gypsies and Irish Travellers are now all recognised to have protection under the Race Relations Act as they have been finally recognised as minority ethnic communities in law."
 http://www.grtleeds.co.uk/information/raceIssues.html

You then say:

"It's common, especially within the music scene (rap or hip-hop anyone?) of which this gig is a part of. It doesn't mean I think it's right, or an acceptable thing for radicals to do uncritically, but I think all the aggressive shouting about racism is mistaken and misplaced, and to be honest, just makes you/us look a bit obsessed, and with a grudge against The Common Place, who at worst I think have been a bit stupid and slow to sort it out."

Consider this response from a poster on another site, responding to Madam Laycock's apology:

"What is a problem is relating the word gypsy to a negative word like nightmare and using racist stereotypes to wacky up your advertising.

It wasn't the right wing, gypsy and traveller-hating press that were having a go at you for this night - it was gyspies and travellers. The 'current climate' is one of segregation, expulsion and NIMBYish. By using the word nightmare, all you did was encourage the current climate as purported by the likes of Sarkozy, Berlusconi and our own dear councils in the UK. Brava."

and:

"In your post on the other site, you claim you were inspired by "Romanticism of Eastern Europe back in 1400s". You're talking about a race of people who live amongst us today, not some historical fancy."
 http://avenue-b.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=53577&sid=31a060245e7c1328d4d55081afc23ea8

Consider today's headline from the Daily Star:
BIG FAT GYPSY DWARF, in an article which tells us that:
"Channel 4 is keen to capitalise on the success of its hit traveller programme with more looks at oddball Britain."
 http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/178605/BIG-FAT-GYPSY-DWARF/

and think about the publicity for this event: "Freakish circus sideshow acts with live music to tantilise the senses" along with this: "Dress to impress - prizes for the best freaks" and tell us where you see a significant difference in approach. Because I can't.

Which is why I am struggling to accept that the ' aggressive shouting about racism is mistaken and misplaced' - I don't understand why it wasn't immediately clear to people that this had the potential to offend, that it played into the dominant prejudicial attitude towards Travellers, and that an 'Autonomous Radical Social Centre' could in no way be seen to condone this.

Consider the email from Claireblue on 15th February, and the complete inaction that followed. Nine days later this rather more forthright article was published, and only then was the name changed, a meeting called, and the event cancelled (after it turned out that someone misrepresented GATEs position).

Having missed the implications in the first place, CP seemed to miss them again, even when they were spelt out in an email from GATE. It was only when presented with a more forthright approach, and a threat of a picket of the event that they took steps to deal with the matter. It does seem to me that it wouldn't have got to that if they'd responded appropriately in the first place.



Tackle racism in the movement

What a hypocrite

26.02.2011 20:39

I like the way a poster says they're waiting for the inevitable slag-offs and they proceeds to slag other people off! There's some Machiavellian shit on here Princess.

Stop trying to shift the blame

Hypocrites

26.02.2011 21:00

I'd include all those who were prepared to look the other way rather than risk the ire of the back-stabbing gossips who are the real bullies of Leeds and who've been busy over the past 2 days trying to intimidate people into not standing against this racist (gypsies are a racial group) event.

Leeds anti-racist

Mixed feelings

26.02.2011 21:17

Surely anyone can see that this night and even the publicity for it would have only added to the negative and RACIST stereotyping of Gypsies. I think the common place have behaved pretty shittily and its a shame some still are. However, fair play to whoever bothered to check with GATE and for pulling the event eventually.

Craig

help

26.02.2011 22:26

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is my interpretation ... Some young artists wrapped up in a music genre didn't realise the appalling connotations of a fundraising event, yes 'gypsy nightmare' is an absolutely moronic and offensive name for a night and blurb like dress in your 'wildest attire' doesn't help either - but that does make you realise it was conceived in utter oblivion of the Gypsy and Traveller community, which it was. But to compare it to the 'snearing humour' of chav parties is unfair, this wasn't targeted or disrespectful in intent. Neither was it anything like the 'blacking up' of Otley Run students, which I find utterly weird and wonder how the fuck they get away with it.

Non of this is relevant however, the argument here is racism is racism, and to argue against anyone calling racism is to become a racist apologist or racist, an unwinnable argument. I know this post will get eagerly ripped apart.

The Common Place should really have been aware of all this earlier and acted sooner - there's not much excuse there.

So what to learn ...

I know a little bit more about the effects of discrimination faced by the Gypsy and Traveller community. Leeds GATE is an amazing organisation and a lot more people know about it.

And well all this played into the hands of the cops, it gave something they wanted, more excuses to put pressure on the Common Place - enquiries about an event with the 'potential for violence' and a yet another licensing visit.

I'd like to respond to a comment from someone claiming to be a member of another social centre, something along the lines of 'how very very very wrong the politics of the common place have become' - Well we really fucked up... but I'd like to be part of a community where you can fuck up, and learn and not be endlessly punished for that. I'm suspicious that this person really is from another SC however, mainly because they seem to suggest it's relatively easy for projects like Common Conversation to find a home. It's not - the degree of shared ownership and participation is really important and autonomous spaces are really good at avoiding patronising service provision. There is very little public space in Leeds and it's decreasing all the time, the Common Place is the only independent community space in the city centre.

I still have hopes for a Leeds social centre - owned preferably , somewhere that fosters an open and creative politics and somehow avoids becoming institutionalised, even plays a role in real social struggles which is fanciful and an SC that is sustainable. And is a cheap and useful place you'd want to go in the day time and meet people as well as fun evening events ...radical bookshop, cafe etc bar venue and all the rest ..blah blah. Sorry losing the thread but it would be good if people could put energy into this.

zywiec

Just a fiasco?

26.02.2011 22:42

The post signed 'Waiting for the threats and slag offs' has to rank as one of the most disingenuous unhidden posts on this thread. There've been no other threats so why would you expect them? You slag people off and then invite a response. Is this entrapment? Since most of the posts on this thread are essentially anonymous, how do you know exactly that no Gypsies or Travellers consider that there was nothing racist about this event? Do you expect them to have names like Romany Bob or something, or to sign their posts with a X? Don't you think perhaps you might be beginning to stray into (hush) racist terroritory? It took Gypsies and Travellers a long time to have their racial status recognised in the UK so please don't strip them of it quite so quickly, otherwise you'll sound more ignorant than the average cop. Your views are laid clear when you try to characterise those less ignorant than yourself as obsessive or bearing a grudge or as anti-racist 'thought police', and you have the arrogance to disbelieve so many people are genuinely pissed-off. There's plenty of reasoned argument on this thread from people trying to explain why this event was offensive, and calling someone a racist or a racist apologist is only lazy if it's inaccurate. There's plenty of explanation too, just try and see past those bitter little blinkers of yours and READ instead of just telling lies and smearing people.

Politically Correct

Briefly

26.02.2011 23:00

Z baby! Just a couple of things you missed - the presence of the Gypsy Bastard DJ0 n the fact the gig people lied through their teeth. Can't you CPers just say sorry, not sorry but...?

Okocim

Zywiec

26.02.2011 23:31

You talk more sense than most at the CP, but 'endlessly punished'?! Come on, this thread is only still going on cos your lot are still whining and back-stabbing. Do none of you know how to apologise? The original poster seems to have been quite magnanimous given the circumstances. And cops? Please don't even think of laying that at anyone's door but your own.

Getagrip

Seems pretty obvious to me

27.02.2011 00:12

Given the amount of racism and anti-traveller sentiment around, why is it so hard for anyone to believe that the idiot who named this night 'Gypsy Nightmare' had any racist intent? Even within the movement I've heard loads of anti-Gypsy stuff.

Acts like a racist, talks like a racist, probably IS a racist

"we hope to work closely with the promoters in the future"!!!

27.02.2011 00:36

Wot even after they conned you into passing their scummy event by lying to you? Even after casually risking the job and reputation of the worker at GATE, and risking future good relationships with them n Travellers in general? Even after all the trouble they've caused?! You should get Tony White n Wigan Mike back on the door.

Gobsmacked

Laycock's Lies

27.02.2011 01:20

Serial liar 'Madame Laycock' is lying through her teeth about GATE here too:  http://avenue-b.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=53577&sid=31a060245e7c1328d4d55081afc23ea8 They ought to sue her! What a dishonest person. I wonder which particular liar she is on here.

Pants On Fire

Forgetting to breathe

27.02.2011 01:46

They've just got a cultural identity - a hobby, a way of life - just about puts Travellers on a par with anglers or skinheads! What a shocking level of ignorance from the one expecting a slagging. You know, in some circles denying someone's RACIAL IDENTITY might even get you called a racist. Making up stories about threats and violence will also get you called a liar.

Is it just me?

Antifascist: contact me to talk about this

27.02.2011 08:59

Come clean

"26.02.2011 14:15
Come on Dave, just admit it, you thought this was all about 'political correctness' just as you excused the racism of the bloke ranting about 'pakis' and 'foreigners' at the EF! Gathering the other year as 'a generational thing'. You've got a good heart but FFS start buying a better class of newspaper.

Antifascist "

Correct, initially I did think it was all about political correctness & thought police stuff and I was wrong but to say I excused the racism of that bloke is a fucking lie. There is no excuse for racism. No ifs, No buts. I was the one at the gate to 'pull him on it' and stop him. I never heard him say anything wrong after that. You do anti racism your way, I do it mine but I do not excuse people for racism!


Dave

GPD

Please put your hackles in

27.02.2011 10:17

Bit of a mess this, and there seems to be some (I guess) white (and possibly middle-class) people hurt and upset about being challenged - subconsciously about having their authority, their cleverness, challenged - but also of course there's that nasty racism word. Believe me, very few of us, particularly those of us from skin-privileged backgrounds, howevdr unconsciously, are never racist. All of us would benefit from a day on a racial and cultural awareness one. Why don't the Common Place organise sessions? Without wishing to be judgemental, anyone who failed to see the racist implications of such an obviously problematic event is bound to cause offence again.

Trying 2 b helpful

GPD

27.02.2011 11:29

Since we're friends Dave, I'm just going to suggest you come round for a cup of tea. Which I'm surprised you didn't do last week.

Antifascist (not the only one on this thread)

Gypsies outdone in persecution

27.02.2011 13:34

Come on Gypsies, don't try and compare the inconvenience of your 'cultural lifestyle' with the 'persecution' currently being suffered by half a dozen white-middle class idiots in Leeds. Don't try and compare centuries of abuse and genocide to these poor lambs missing a Saturday night out. They've had to suffer the threat of a PICKET from their fellow Common Place members dontcha know.

Getagrip

The reality of the Common Place

27.02.2011 16:55

Maybe some people on this thread have never been to the Common Place or maybe they're newcomers to politics and very excited about going there a few times, but for those who know the place well it has NEVER really worked as a social centre, certainly not after the Sterling G8. The only person who has really benefitted from its presence is the slum landlord who owns the building. It is not part of any 'community', is hardly ever open, and barely anyone in Leeds even knows that it exists. It is a rat-infested politically marginalised shithole, appallingly and undemocratically run, and which has leeched thousands out of its members over the years to fritter away on some really stupid shit, pay for mismanagement and incompetence, and mainly fill the pockets of the landlord and a few 'hippy' capitalists, and the coffers of the council. The 1 in 12, the Cowley, the Sumac, those are social centres. The Common Place is just a dirty, ugly, rented building. Get involved? I've been involved and it just sucks money and energy out of activists.

Common as muck

common as muck

27.02.2011 20:51

The Common Place has never been an SC in the same way the Cowley Club, Sumac and 1 in 12 has been..and it's currently pretty much diy music venue, bike coop and refugee community space .. and midweek meetings also but never day time hanging out. It was never that! The building just way too unfriendly.

However, it's always been democratic and actively anti-authoritarian and it's been very politically productive in it's own way.

Mismanaged?.. the £15,000 debt comes from from appealing the withdrawl of it's members license following police raids, this coming after the departure of Lynn Watson and the showing of 'on the verge' the smash EDO film. Seems a bit unfair to be blamed for that.

People have been meeting to try and buy somewhere in Leeds for a couple of years now. The Sumac, Cowley and 1 in 12 are all owned. Help em out!

tyskie

Tyskie

27.02.2011 23:28

Sorry tyskie, but please don't show your historical ignorance of the common place or people will just laugh at you (some more).

RALMAO

Hang on a minute Robespiere, are you having a laugh?

04.03.2011 04:13

Writing in defence of the event, The otherwise anonymous "Robespiere" mentions that members of the band are "Working Class Eastern Europeans". Now I am not having a go at them, never met 'em, probably nice folk, but what the frig has that got do do with anything?

Does he or she mean that Working Class Eastern Europeans are incapable of being racist? Especially towards Gypsy people? Really? Where do the words Ghetto and Pogrom come from then mush? Ever heard of the Ukrainian SS, Latvian SS, Polish White Army? Hungarian Iron Cross?

Or is he / she using the fact that the musicians are Working Class and from Eastern Europe as a way of saying that Robespiere's political credentials are beyond reproach? "look everybody! I know some poor foreigners, I can't possibly be racist."

Either way it's bloody lousy and indicative of the lazy smug thinking of too many of the Common Place crew. Big love to the decent people there who have done such good work with refugees etc, but we can't and will not ignore the self satisfied ponces who are responsible for this.

And the frighteningly self serving abuse of the name and reputation of GATE is just unbelievable. I have worked with them occasionally for years past and a nicer , braver and more honest (small) group of people you could not wish to meet, they walk a razors edge that few of the self satisfied gap year revolutionaries resposible for this could ever know, and to treat them like this is obscene.

And now the Robespiere, the poor lamb is feeling persecuted? Oy.
Try getting out of your recycled ivory substitute tower kid, and see what real persecution is. Then you might just understand what a real Gypsy's nightmare consists of.

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