Beeston meeting on 7/7 March 9th

Last time Moazzam Begg spoke in Sheffield he was really good:  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/sheffield/2007/12/387568.html

Some good background material on 7/7:

Inside the Crevice: 7/7 and the Security Debacle
Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/05/370395.html

British terror trial raises question of what MI5 knew about 2005 London bombings
Julie Hyland
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/05/370102.html

Bluewater plotters and the 7/7 cell: Peering through the crevice....
Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/04/369122.html

7/7 and Britain's Terror Paradigm
Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/07/345039.html

And essential reading (well apart from the foreword by Detective Superintendent Des Thomas (ex-CID chief)...) from The Institute for Policy Research & Development (IPRD)  http://globalcrisis.org.uk/

Inside the Crevice
By Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed
 http://globalcrisis.org.uk/main/PDF/Inside%20the%20Crevice.pdf

Press TV debate on the London Bombings 17 Oct 2007
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBO6dWCtu8w
 http://www.presstv.ir

What if Machon was still in the pay of MI5 and JulySeventh.co.uk were her useful idiots who ran a website full of utter drivel driving attention far away from the truth about 7/7. Away from information that is wide out in the open= MI6 were sponsoring international terrorism and recruiting for it in the UK. It blew up in their faces. But only after blow up in the faces of people in the Balkans and who knows where else.

They must be laughing their arses off round Vauxhaull and Millbank that activists would rally to a known spook.

This is as bad as the NRA turning up in places where gun tragedies have occurred to spread their crazy lies, or the BNP turning up in areas where there has been racially motivated incidents.

Read the stuff that Chrisc recommends and don't bother with those clowns- unless you have a cache of rotten eggs going idle.

Then go build a case against MI6 and cause a stink about that, and not some crap wild goose chase that conveniently ignores everything that is already in the public domain.

Richard, you think Moazzam Begg is a clown? Please spend some time on his site and ideally read his book, I think you will find that you are mistaken:

 http://cageprisoners.com/

As for Annie Machon, it would help if those accusing her of working for MI5 came up with some credible and solid evidence that this is the case...

This talk from her is worth a listen:

Annie Machon: British spy lifts lid on false flag terror (londons sound posse)
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/05/371107.html

It's interesting that the comment attacking her on that thread (she always gets at least one comment attacking her when she is mentioned on this site...) is flatly contradicted by Craig Murray... go figure...

I don't know anything about the 3rd speaker so I can't comment on them.

Do you really endorse the utter bollocks on the J7T site? Do you really trust Machon?

Do you really think anyone from MI5 should be trusted and courted just because they seem to agree with you? I someone professing to be ex-MI5 told me the milk in my tea came from cows, I'd have sent off to a lab.

Do you really think 7/7 was a false flag and that Nafeez Ahmed's detailed research showing links between the bombers and Finsbury Park mosque is wrong?

That the mosque hadn't been hijacked by MI6 to recruit jihadists for the Balkans?

That ex-SAS and US special forces weren't training people recruited through Finsbury Park both in the Balkans, the UK and the US and who knows else where?

That the Blair government didn't strangely bend over backwards to deny any "international dimension" to 7/7?

That Israel and Saudi never warned them in advance?

That there is no possiblity that military grade explosives were used with sophisticated timers that could have been funneled through the 'al qaeda' black market routes from the Balkans through Algeria into the UK?

That all totally implausible too? Because none of that sits well with the idea that it was all fake.

Because that is basically what Machon and J7T would have us believe. No case to answer for MI6 and the Government on known crimes in favour for no case to build on supposed crimes without a shred of evidence.

What sounds like more of a diversion to you? Going after what is palpable or throwing the baby out with the bathwater for something that is total conjecture.

i will attend and record plus ill take some images a e mail has been sent to those who are doing the meeting to ask..

mozaz

These 7/7 guys spent months harassing bombing victim Rachel North and her family so why on Earth would anyone support them now?

I guess Machon and her lapdogs turns a blind eye to that?

Rachael North spoke at the public meeting that launched the "essential reading", Inside the Crevice report I mentioned above:

Whose Security? What Intelligence? 7/7 Independent Public Inquiry Needed
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/09/381449.html

Ok so, let us admit that Nafeez Ahmed's detailed research which I haven't read is true. The alleged (I say alleged because it is only a police and governmental allegation that has not been validated by a court of law, nor any possible complicity pursued btw...) bombers had links with some Finsbury Park mosque people.

Let us even accept that they were al-qaeda operatives.

In which way does it prove, as you seem to say, that the operation was not a false flag op ?

Not defending J7T as I don't know precisely what its line is and what kind of ridiculous arguments may have eventually been inserted in it in order to help discredit it as a whole by an army of professional bloggers.

Maybe you could clarify your position as I am not sure I understand exactly the points you are making.

I personally think there is enough evidence to strongly suggest the 7/7 bombings are a false flag op, and that each of those pieces of circumstancial evidence should be looked into deeper which is something only a court of law can achieve.

And that's why they do not want an enquiry IMO.

Is there not a law that says when there is murder there is judicial enquiry ?

Fair questions put in a polite manner. That's a rarity for these threads.

So, I'll try my best to keep my rudeness to a minimum. But... with the best of respects if you are not aware of what was going on at Finsbury Park and its links to 7/7 you haven't seen very much in the way of "evidence".

There is certainly much more to Finsbury Park than what the State has said. In fact, if anything that the state has said flies in the face of much that everyone else has said about it all.

There have been numerous articles and documentaries regarding what happened at the mosque well before 7/7. All that fuss and still Hamza was at large recruiting for Jihad. And not an MI6 asset? Just incredibly lucky that the media weren't following him like paparazzi.

The government version would have us believe that some extremists just happened to take over a very busy Mosque in North London and start recruiting for Jihad. As you do, in the most policed city in Europe. Fly posting the area with material hailing the guy who was wanted for the USS Coles and Embassy attacks as a hero. Keeping a low profile because they weren't MI6 assets of course. My the government was so surprised- had only the the locals alerted them!

The story leaking out the edges was that MI6 brought Hamza and al Bakri to sunny North London to recruit for the KLA, for their friends in Pakistani Kashmir and to stick a boot up Russia's arse in Chechnya. That these recruits were being trained by the British and Americans here, the US and other places. In other words sponsoring terrorism abroad and to circumvent UN resolutions on the Balkans. Remember how the KLA were fawned over by the media as heroes and friends?

The Mosque itself eventually went to the police to have Abu Hamza & Co. removed. There are undoubtedly people still at that mosque who can tell you better than I can. So for the price of a ticket up the Piccadilly Line: out the Station at the Seven Sisters Road bus station exit, turn right look up and you can't miss it.

You are right that it doesn't rule out a false flag, but only as much as it also doesn't rule out that Elvis did it. The laws of common sense diminish the stance's plausibility.

A brief explanation of what is wrong with the "false flag" story. A false flag is a black op designed to pin the guilt on someone else.

1. You wouldn't use military explosives if you wanted to frame al Qaeda or lone bombers. Hence how interesting it is that these guys managed to successfully build TATP devices all on their own.

2. You wouldn't deny it was al Qaeda if you wanted to blame al Qaeda. That one is beyond any doubt!

3. You wouldn't leave a trial of evidence for the plod leading right back to an MI6 operation in Finsbury Park if you were going to blame "lone bombers".

4. Would you employ a loudmouthed nutcase like Hamza to keep something quiet?

Logic dictates when you try and frame someone else you try to cover your tracks...

And I won't even start with the utter rubbish that J7T push. But for a much better insight into the non-false flag position read Ahmed's book. You can pick it up 2nd hand cheap on Amazon. Which I'll have to do... again! People keep stealing it.

Government collusion in international terrorism and murder, war crimes, international crimes, aggression against other nations, the breaking of UN resolutions, having brought the very people responsible for 7/7 to these shores and protecting them: a motive for dodging any independent serious inquiry?

Over and out!

Annie Machon at the 24th CCC congres, Berlin Dec 2007

A presentation about the role of intelligence agencies in the current era of the unending “war on terror”, how they monitor us, the implications for our democracies, and what we can do to fight back.

In the name of protecting national security, spy agencies are being given sweeping new powers and resources. Their intelligence has been politicised to build a case for the disastrous war in Iraq, they are failing to stop terrorist attacks, and they continue to collude in illegal acts of internment and torture, euphemistically called “extraordinary rendition”. Most western democracies have already given so many new powers to the spies that we are effectively living in police states. As an informed community, what can we do about this?

 http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-4158037511514265986

I'll bet the first piece of advice wasn't to mistrust spies who profess to being ex-spies- especially the ones who came to public prominence off the back of what could have very well been a psyop to bring more pressure on Ghadaffi. And even more so the ones that seemed so desperate to be part of the truth movement that they kept changing their story.

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/feb/26/uksecurity.july7

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7256859.stm

Allright then, if I understand correctly, what you are saying is that the bombings pretty much happened as the police and government claim but you think much responsability lies in the handling of terror networks by the government and SIS. I also understand you claim this handling, or rather mishandling, is deliberate and that those entities are actually working at breeding some terrorists as to justify the policies taken in response of terror attacks.

Is this correct ?

Well yes and no. Yes, there is good reason to believe that 7/7 was the consequence of an MI6 operation in London to recruit for Jihad in line with British interests.

And no I don't believe that the government and police has told the full story. The government have denied any "international dimension" to 7/7 but that there is a link between the people who carried out the bombing and the people recruiting for "Jihad" abroad at Finsbury Park (most likely MI6 assets) automatically suggests there is at the very least a cover up. There seems little doubt that who did it did it (unlike some of the names in 9/11), the Government claimed Iraq wasn't a factor but the bombers themselves contradicted that from the grave in the video, there seems much doubt about what kind of device was used so we can doubt whether the story of how they made the device was true. The official version is riddled with oddities. So major fundamental aspects in their story is total bullshit.

An independent investigation that looked at the Finsbury Park dimension would stand a chance of unearthing the truth. Any theories that is was a false flag are founded in nothing at all... or what they present as evidence is sheer nonsense.

There is however much to suspect that an effort has been made to keep Finsbury Park and the people there well out of the picture. And seemingly a strategy to mop up the assets and the people that the assets recruited as quietly as possible. Who knows this kind of may also explain a lot o do with the 9/11 story. Whitewash?


The government could have quietly nurtured the Continuity IRA or something if all it was interested in was draconian legislation and attacking human rights. I see the legal implications of the aftermath of 7/7 and 9/11 as being cynical reactionary politics and a bit of opportunism.

I don't think the government really cares much of a fuck about what we think or do most of the time as it knows we are pretty much powerless to challenge it even before any new legislation gets introduced. Look at Iraq. he largest ever demonstration in the UK's history and it got blanked.

Increasing detention limits, lowering the burden of proof, proscribing groups it's all reactionary PR and demagoguery. All they really give a shit about is getting re-elected and riding the gravy train as long as possible. It's all good copy for the Daily Mail and the Spook Daily (Telegraph). Beer and skittles for xenophobes and the paranoid, which is money in the bank.

I suspect that all the human rights implications of harassing Asian youths and encouraging racism in the press is probably just the byproduct of self-serving decision making and keeps most people looking in the wrong direction whilst they squander vast amounts of public money. The same dehumanised self-serving strategy that made them decide that recruiting terrorism in the UK was worth the blow back of 7/7 or 9/11 or whatever is next. It'll make them money and so what if a few eggs get broken.


What I just don't buy is that a so-called ex-spook can stand there and encourage people to spout off a load of rubbish that is a complete red herring. Either they are still on the payroll, they are exaggerating their previous standing or they are cynically interloping in the whole thing for financial gain.

Whatever , it seems awfully convenient that the government and MI6 are getting off the hook here with what is widely known/suspected.

What I would like to know if you don't mind, is why you are so adamant that false flag theories are based on nothing at all ?

In my opinion, they are based on a number of facts that are extremely suspicious and that provide ample room for those theories.

Again I am not defending J7T as I haven't read anything on that site so far as I am keener reading some of Diana's enquiry transcripts ATM.

I vaguely knew about Shayler and he made sense to me in a video where he spoke to an Indymedia reporter about 7-7. He did not enter into any specifics about it as far as I can recall though. I have learned about Machon in this thread only.

So you think they are cointelpro (counter intelligence propaganda) ?

Since I have googled for the keyword Machon and that it did yeld page after page of israeli stuff, including the names of Dimona's nuclear plant units, I have now some suspicion that Machon might not be exactly a former MI5 agent but rather maybe a former Mossad mole in MI5 whose role could now be to take the lead in the 7/7 truth movement and divert attention from the fact that the Mossad and Israeli interests are quite obviously right in the middle of 7/7.

Quite baseless on the face of a name only I recognize and maybe I should read their website before doing such stupid comments.

Well, there isn't any evidence that it was a false flag. Evidence being something substantial and beyond reasonable doubt. All this stuff about faked photos, "terror drills", and patsies and the rest of it has no substance, it's all conjecture held together with fag papers and spit. I'm not saying that it is flat out impossible. But if 7/7 was a false flag after all it was jaw-droppingly lax in its execution.

There is however a lot that points to an illegal MI6 operation in London being connected to it, and the reasonable possibility that it went horribly wrong and the government are trying to cover it up. There is a cover up of something for sure.

I have no evidence that Machon is anything. I just find it rather hard to reconcile her position of being involved in MI5 and having a blindspot for Finsbury Park just like the State does. Blatant recruitment for Jihad in broad daylight and nothing substantial done against it till 7/7 and even then they go out their way to keep the two things very separate. Strange behaviour to say the least.

I have no idea what her motives may be. I just threw 3 ideas into the circle that could explain this.


Also, it is highly likely Mossad had nothing to do with it. It again would astoundingly strange that Israel warned the UK in advance of the bombings if they were responsible. You are getting into far reaching iterations of "what ifs" to try and fit that in.

What did Israel stand to gain from bombing London??? Why didn't they frame some Palestinians, Iranians, Lebanese or Syrians? Why four blokes from England? What did it stand to lose if it got caught!

How would Mossad pull that off if the bombers were recruited by MI6 assets and had training through the extended MI6/al Qaeda network in Pakistan? It's kind of overlooking the obvious in favour of something convoluted.

I just find it all totally perplexing that the only people interested in 7/7 seem to be completely bonkers or besotted with a nigh on religious devotion to the idea that there are no real people in the world motivated to kill us, it is all the work of the government. So much so that they completely overlook some substantial highly illegal government activity in the process. It does make me doubt their motives.

Can you imaging the shitstorm if it came to light that the Government had employed Hamza & Co. to train people to go abroad and to do what they have done in Kosovo, Chechnya, Kashmir etc. (terrorism) and then to discover that they trained the people who used their acquired skills on the UK, possibly organised by our MI6 assets. The charge sheet would look like Doctor Who's scarf.

But this keeps getting ignored time and time again, just as the government and the media does. It was even mentioned yesterday that one of the Finsbury Park people banged up was the last person to phone one of the J7 bombers... no-one picked up on that lead.

All these J7 people bang on about is Mossad and video fakery technology that doesn't even exist. Whatever happened to their mainstay of Occam's Razor?

I wouldn't blame anyone for wondering if people like J7 and Machon and Shayler are a psyop. I have no evidence at all on that. But like I said they could just be idiots or making a buck. For certain they are proving to be a "ludicrous diversion".

I note that the theories you dismiss are based on facts and that those you promote, which are certainly not uninteresting, are only based on allegations, rumors and the like, besides maybe the fact that two of the alleged bombers were for a time on SIS watch and subsequently weren't anymore for some reason, which would provide an entry point in an enquiry on 7/7 for your concerns, but you didn't even mention that.

Why such double-standards ?

Can you imagine the shitstorm if it came to light that Tony Blair and senior officials in the governement, SIS and Police are accomplices in a false flag terror attack carried out by the Mossad in London on 7/7 ?

Why accusing Mossad ? But because they were there mate and certainly massively so considering the setup. And because they have experts in explosives, are known to assassinate people quite often which is something the Israeli government sometimes even bragg about. Not enough for making them a suspect maybe ?

Did Israel warned the UK in advance ? Where are you getting this from if I may ask ? Sounds to me like typical bullshit printed in the Sun to validate the government claims. Anyway it's an allegation only isnt'it, like all the rest you push forward as a basis for your exclusive theory ?

What would have Israel to win ? Everything mate. Remember the line with which they went immediately after 9/11. "Now you understands us". "Now you know what is it to be attacked by those islamist suicide bombers". "Our fight is now also your fight". This fight then got branded the war on terror and it has strongly benefited Israel. They murder with impunity much more Palestinians than they did before. Saddam has been eliminated and Iraq emasculated, strongly strenghtening their regional supremacy not to speak about their economy thanks to the bullets they sell to the US army and the extra billion dollar to purchase weapons and the extra nine billion dollar in loan guarantees they received from the US in compensation for the economical pressure they may suffer from the Iraq war (Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell - AIPAC policy conference 2003 as source for the latter).

Why they didn't frame foreigners ? But because it's easier to use locals than import people of course.

(Provided they are actually culprit) what would they stand to lose if they got caught ? A lot of course, just like any criminal that gets caught by justice.

How would Mossad pull that off if the bombers were recruited by MI6 assets and had training through the extended MI6/al Qaeda network in Pakistan ?

The "bombers" were off the hook by MI6 isnt'it ? I would say that MI6, or rather someone at a quite high level in MI6, passed them to another organization.

Unlike some other I am not seeking to prove that the indirect evidence (which is no evidence, it just strenghten superficially the plausibility of the case put forth by the government), such as the videos of Kahn and Tanweer, is forged. It is in the realm of the possible that those videos could be forged IMO. All that is needed to produce them is some good photographs, some good quality audio recording of some length, actors of a similar stature and some very expensive software plus the skills to use them. It is also possible they are genuine. I believe it is actually quite irrelevant to the investigation of the suspicious facts surrounding the events that occurred on 7/7 whether those videos are forged or genuine, and even whether the alleged bombers were actually a so-called terror cell or not. But maybe I am wrong on that, especially if it could be proven that they were actually not involved in anything. I personnaly believe they were possibly a sort of "terror cell", that they had possibly tried briefly to manufacture TATP before unsuccessfully attempting the manufacture of HMTD, but I also believe that they would not have been more efficient than the others that followed or preceded them if they had actually carried out an attack themselves. I don't understand why you question the motivations of those who work at attempting to prove that such or such material is forged to the extent one feels you almost accuse them of active complicity in the murders. Well that's how I felt it.

What's much more interesting to question is the absence of videos of the alleged bombers in London on 7/7. There should be abundant quality footage of them. Where is it ? Why is it absent ? And I believe that's the kind of footage that is impossible to forge btw...

And there are plenty of other interesting questions to ask based on known facts such a the terror drill or the presence of Rudy Giuliani or the changing line about the explosives used, and some others. I'll try to list good ones sometime.

As for the Finsbury Park people banged up was the last person to phone one of the J7 bombers, I don't understand what you are trying to prove or validate with yet another rumour that has been floated by someone yesterday.

Aren't you a bit of a psyop yourself ?

Gosh! All this talk of espionage! So, either the Israelis are planting bombs in the UK in order to cement their attempts to be a nation state, or the UK are colluding in conspiratorial plots involving Finsbury Mosque. Black flag ops, psyops, conspiracy, willy nilly. Is there any space in this debate for human frailty? Can human beings make mistakes?

If we are to assume that the evil or dark side comprises the US, the UK, Israel, the EU, the UN, the Foundation of British Bricklayers, history as was written by the victors, and Groucho Marx, then where are we supposed to stand? Is there any space for mistakes, or is everything contrived, because to me that sounds reminiscent of absolute fate, so what's the point in bothering?

Conspiracy exists, so what? Where do you draw the line? With your nose on the wall of a padded cell? Who is trust worthy, and if no one is trustworthy, then what possible chance of consensus?

Maybe a bunch of people decided to bomb the underground. Maybe they were inspired by mindless rhetoric. Or maybe fifty odd people didn't plaster the walls of London.

There is a fall back. If you believe that it is wrong to do unto others, etc, then you lose nothing. It is wrong to kill people. And posting notices on Indymedia is hardly going to rock any boats. Or do you really think this is a genuine expose? I don't.

Provided you are the same person who recently posted a topic and comments under the nickname of Pancho Brigantes, it is very hard for me not to identify you as some sort of government and/or zionist chill or something around those lines, either by profession or as a result of being brainwashed, as your your overall message seems to be that those who question the official version of 7/7 and are calling for a public inquiry into it are mere nutjobs, and that instead a great cause worth involvment is fighting a supposed neo-nazi threat currently threatening our country.

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/02/392187.html

Yes, I am "some sort of government and/or zionist chill or something around those lines, either by profession or as a result of being brainwashed."

"If you believe that there are demons hiding behind the door, then you will see demons hiding behind the door. But that doesn't mean that there are demons hiding behind the door."

I've done the conspiracy thing, all the way through Weishaupt to Atlantis, and that's where I began to see the futility of the exercise, not because there are not conspiracies, but because there's precious little you can do about them which is objective. But I suspect that the world in which you live is a lot more frightening than the world where I live, and nothing is what it seems. Atomically, nothing is what it seems. But, as Brecht says, I don't come on here to prove I'm right, but to find out whether, and as a novice of Indymedia, I'm also trying to find the boundaries for discussion in what seems regularly to be a quite poisonous atmosphere. And it is really difficult to make a point without coming across as a pompous asshole, even when I'm not being a pompous asshole. But this is one "thread," which, I take it, is a topic of discussion, separate to the linkage which you've made to another thread where a separate discussion is taking place, and I'm not a witch wot needs hunting, and my point is simply to question whether this double agent stuff actually does any good. By the way, have you heard of the Law of Fives - a human mind can only entertain agency on behalf of whichever power to five degrees at most - it can go double agent, triple agent, quadruple agent, and whatever the word for to the power of five is, but anything after that and the reality cortex begins to disintegrate. Or, in lay terms, the person goes mad.

Anyway, discord and paranoia have their place, and they warn us and guard us, but it's difficult to build a house there.

Peace.