9/11 - Loose Change

www.911myths.com

www.bautforum.com

(and that's just for starters)

But aren't those sites funded by the people using their Official Conspiracy Theory to wage widespread, pre-planned Aggression? What would be the point?

Where can I find engineering studies concerning the World Trade Center that refute the claims that it was demolished by bombs or “controlled demolition?”
 http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_execsum.pdf
 http://wtc.nist.gov/media/Structural_Fire_Response_and_Collapse_Analysis.pdf
 http://www.firehouse.com/news/2002/4/30_APwtc.html

Where can I find engineering studies that offer evidence that structural steel from the World Trade Center was collected for analysis?
 http://wtc.nist.gov/media/gallery.htm#recover
 http://wtc.nist.gov/media/gallery2.htm
 http://wtc.nist.gov/media/Structural_Fire_Response_and_Collapse_Analysis.pdf
 http://members.fortunecity.com/911/wtc/WTC_apndxD.htm

Where can I find evidence that refutes the claim that World Trade Center Building 7 was “pulled” down intentionally by some official order?
 http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Biederman/Biederman-0112.html

Where can I find engineering studies concerning the Pentagon that refute the claims that it was hit by a guided missile?
 http://www.icivilengineer.com/News/WTC/pentagon.php
 http://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/cmh/simulation/phase1/
 http://www.asce.org/responds/

More information:
 http://architecture.about.com/library/weekly/aawtc-collapse.htm
 http://www.icivilengineer.com/News/wtc.php
 http://www.icivilengineer.com/News/WTC/structure.php
 http://enr.construction.com/news/buildings/archives/021104.asp
 http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/
 http://www.icivilengineer.com/News/WTC/Fire.html
 http://www.asce.org/pdf/3-6-02wtc_testimony.pdf
 http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html
 http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc.php#why
 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/resources.html
 http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/
More links to real engineers refuting conspiracy theorists:

 http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html
 http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc.php
 http://space.com/scienceastronomy/generalscience/wtc_science_010919.html
 http://www.teachersdomain.org/6-8/sci/engin/systems/collapse/
 http://mcleon.tripod.com/WTC1.htm
 http://www.hera.org.nz/PDF Files/World Trade Centre.pdf

When are one of the defenders of the official story going to actually come up with anything that addresses the questions raised by Steven Jones in his paper:  http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Or the speed of collapse issue:  http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/BilliardBalls.html

Will NIST and FEMA people who have been invited to this debate on the issue:  http://www.teamliberty.net/id244.html turn up? I doubt it, perhaps "Spook Plant" and "Architect" should go since they know that the official story is true and seem to spend most their time defemding it here (why?)...

May 17, 2006 -- Add Cuba and Venezuela to the list of countries that knew of and informed the Bush administration about a "major terrorist attack" prior to 911. In addition to Russia, Jordan, France, Germany, and other nations, Venezuelan and Cuban intelligence picked up chatter about a "major terrorist attack" on the United States prior to 911. Cuban intelligence, which has an extensive network in Florida -- a home base of the hijackers and their handlers -- initially picked up reports about the attack and passed the information to both the United States and Venezuela. However, the Bush administration failed to react to this and other foreign warnings. Venezuelan intelligence, likely from its own sources in Florida and elsewhere, confirmed that something major would occur in the United States. The failure of the Bush administration to heed these warnings coupled with subsequent intelligence picked up by the Cuban and Venezuelan security services have led them to conclude that 9-11 was carried out as a result of an "inside job" within the Bush administration. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has announced plans to hold an international 9-11 commission of inquiry in Caracas that will bring together a host of international government, security, and political leaders. Already, preliminary meetings in Caracas for the conference have attracted the attention of the FBI. Recently, an FBI agent asked for the guest list of a hotel on Margarita island to check on names of guests, including Americans, associated with the preliminary planning meetings for the conference.

Christ, it's as spectaularly dull as it is wholly predictable. You criticise unsubstantiated CTs and you get branded a spook or a plant or a troll or a Bush lover blah blah blah.

That the best you can do in the way of cross examination?

Like I said 9/11 Truth is heading nowhere fast. Just wait and see how people dissipate soon enough.

Until 9/11 Truth can present a substantial case it can't possibly achieve anything.

Get some evidence and I'll be on board, but thus far all I can find is conjectured junk.

Warships cost billions...
Flying weapons of war cost billions...
Nuclear weapons and military space satellites cost tens of billions...

Is this sickening expenditure cost-effective for monsters like Blair and Bush? How do you REALLY get the best bang for your buck?

The above mentioned weapons of war don't get monsters elected, and don't keep monsters in power. Luckily for the monsters of the world, there are far more powerful (and far cheaper) weapons- namely weapons of the mind.

911 was simply conceived. One day, one person had a dream. 911, the nation-wide number for extreme distress in the US, floated in front of them, large enough to dominate their view. All of a sudden, the two 1's became the TWIN TRADE TOWERS, skyscrapers reknown across the world for their total lack of architectural features, a perfect number eleven soaring into the sky. Suddenly, cigarette-like, these two towers started to smoke and burn from their upper floors. Our psy-op expert stood transfixed, this giant 911 logo burning itself into their imagination. But when would the day-dream end? With a flash of extraordinary inspiration, our expert understood the form of the only possible conclusion, and just like a cartoon, the 'eleven' of the 911 vanished as each 'tower' crumbled straight down into the ground. A meme was born- a plan to change the World forever.

Now the mad-men and women that advise Blair on such ideas (who are also the self-same people behind advertising, PR, and election campaigns- all offshoots of applied psychology) do not expect their suggestions to be taken up. They are, for the most part, simply required to give their masters a continuous supply of 'blue-sky' thoughts, with little restriction on the practicality of the ideas described. Sometimes, however, sanity is rightly perceived by monsters to be their ultimate prison.

It's time to travel back in time a little farther (or is it 'further', the use of a physical movement metaphor with respect to time doesn't make the choice clear). The US government is on the verge of wanting to join WW2 by actively engaging the Japanese. Bit of a problem. There is NO consensus amongst the American people, and many powerful Americans (like George W. Bush's OWN FAMILY) are actively working with the nazis. While the president probably could persuade Congress to allow for a declaration of war, opposition voices would limit US actions to near ineffectiveness.

The population of the States needs to be manipulated as never before. THEY MUST DEMAND WAR, AND WAR AT ITS MOST EXTREME. A plan is devised. The Japanese are to be provoked, and offered a 'honey-pot' target. The US has long since broken the Japanese codes, and can track the Japanese military response to various US actions. Pearl Harbour is chosen, having the advantage of location, location, location. The US creates a momentum that DEMANDS Japanese action, and waits for them to take the bait.

The attack on Pearl Harbour, unlike 911, was actually carried out by the forces that the US government claimed, but the event was ENTIRELY a construction of the US government. The event allowed pro-war US leaders to enter WW2 with the full backing of the nation. The US government was able to enact war-time powers across EVERY aspect of life within the USA from the very beginning, and wage full-bloodied war from day one.

WAR IS LIKE THIS, IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN. The suport of the ordinary population is ESSENTIAL if the full potential of war is to be achieved. Therefore, the true dominant monsters of history LEAVE NOTHING TO CHANCE.

For the Americans, WW2 was a big bang. Subsequent US wars were anything but. From the end of WW2 through to the end of the Vietnam War, the support from the population for military conflict declined and declined. Only the threat of a hot war between the USSR and the 'West' allowed any support at all for these proxy wars. Better these small conflicts than THE BIG ONE, people were daily told.

AND THEN THE USSR DIED.

So our story ends, with the dismantling of nuclear ICBM's, the global laws that state that nuclear power and space may ONLY be used for peaceful purpose, and the outlawing of all chemical and biological weapons programs. SORRY- IN YOUR DREAMS BUT ***NEVER*** IN THEIR DREAMS.

So our story begins, with an explosion of new nuclear weapons research, the elimination of treaties against using space for military weapons programs, and massive increases in funding for new chemical and biological weapons (leading to the cancelation of plans to destroy the last remaining smallpox on Earth, and the creation of genetic weapons programs directly based of human gene research designed to expose genetic vunerabilities unique to population groups). SORRY, THERE ***ARE*** MONSTERS OUT THERE, AND THEY ARE WORSE THAN ANYTHING FROM YOUR MOST FRIGHTENING NIGHTMARES.

The end of the Cold War was a crossroads for the Human Race. If we proved worthy, we would take advantage of the GOLDEN MOMENT to throw all the little monsters out of power, and evolve our civilisation to its next peak of Human Achievement. If we proved unworthy, we would allow the GOLDEN MOMENT to become a time of chaos, where our inability to make any attempt to improve life on this planet would allow the very worst in Human Behaviour to reign, petty and pathetic and corrupt in a billion small ways at first. Fertile ground for a true world destroying monster to arise from amongst us.

Well, we chose to walk the road to Hell, and Hell in its turn rewarded us with Blair.

Blair didn't create the NEOCONS. No these sick, master-race monsters have been growing like a cancer in the West since the end of WW2. Blair simply inherited them as just one of his major assets. The US NeoCons recognised the extraordinary success of the Pearl Harbour Program, and loudly proclaimed to anyone that would listen that America needed another such event to allow the US to fullfill its divine destiny, ABSOLUTE MASTERY OF PLANET EARTH. Thoughtfully, just as Hitler did with Mein Kamp and his plan to attack Russia, the NeoCons wrote and published their intentions.

So one person has a vision of 911 as the ideal swastika-replacement symbol, one group has a desire for a 21st century Pearl Harbour, and one monster, Blair, has the understanding that here is the possibility for the ultimate meme.

The Israelis were the executioners of '911' but NOT the creators. They were chosen for their expertise with aircraft, computer controlled detonations, and mass-murder of non-master-race civilians, together with the fact that they frequently use agents that pass themselves off as muslims, have complete freedom of movement within the US, and 'own' many of those that run key US facilities. High ranking members of the US administration, military and civilian, were able to issue orders necessary to allow the plan to proceed without problem. WTC7 was the nerve-centre of the operation, and contained the equipment needed for the computer-controlled demolition of the Twin Towers The program of events around Washington were never the main event, and many must have argued against them as an un-needed distraction against the clear symbol of the 'BURNING ELEVEN'.

Pearl Harbour was an attack against the US military, and thus there were those that argued that 911 MUST contain a component of this also (leading to the laughable un-needed and vastly improbable acrobatics of Flight 77 in order to hit with vast precision the one harmless and reinforced part of the pentagon, just as if the plane had some how turned itself into a cruise missile- an important fact because Cheney DID NOT wish to risk the plane taking a more obvious route, crashing downwards into the 'rings' of the Pentagon, in case some unforeseen circumstance lead to Cheney himself being injured). Flight 93 was, of course, designated to crash into the White House (which was conveniently empty of anyone who mattered). Instead, Flight 93 was shot down (the idiotic story of a passenger revolt developed afterwards as a consequence of early 'yellow' journalism exciting the imagination of the simple-minded, and developing into an urban legend that the US government eventually (and reluctantly) gave some support to.)

We don't know why Flight 93 was shot down before it could execute its mission. However, you have to understand that the VAST MAJORITY of those Americans officially responding to the events of 911 had NOTHING to do with the plan. All the planes after the first crashed into the Tower should have been shot down under standard US procedure. Preventing this from happening was a major part of the plan. It may have been that time ran out for Flight 93, and in the end there was no way to prevent its shoot down without giving rise to dangerous suspicion. It may equally have been that events were proceeding so perfectly in New York that the White House crash was aborted, lest it distract from the main event (remember, the White House is VASTLY more iconic than the Twin Towers across the Globe, and most people would have ZERO SYMPATHY if the White House were destroyed, yet pictures of the White House would have competed with pictures of the Twin Towers in the press).

One thing should be understood about plans as ambitious as 911- they always build in redundancy. Blair, and his people from the US and Israel, never guessed that the day would go so well. Perfection should NEVER be a requisite in such a scheme, and yet sometimes perfection is achieved. Day one was, of course, just the beginning. The propaganda campaigns that were to follow, lead very much by the UK, were far more important than the original physical events. Some of those responsible for 911 in the US honestly thought they were earning immediate war with Iraq, shortly followed by war with the rest of the muslim world. Blair knew better- MUCH BETTER.

Hitler could not begin WW2 with an attack against the USSR. Blair likewise understands what it means to play the 'long game'. Afghanistan experienced the aftermath of 911 instead. Suggesting that the 'hijackers' were Afghans would have been loony, so Saudi 'patsies' were chosen. Regardless, Blair's propaganda people had carefully built up the Taliban as a first target (while the US had been busy trying to do business with them). Unlike the oil states, Afghanistan had no connection to the World economy. Better again, the Taliban had no effective armed forces, allowing Blair the knowledge that THIS TIME (unlike his failed attempt over Kosovo), US forces would be prepared to fight on the ground. The US soldier is, of course, the greatest coward in the world, and only fights with enthusiasm when the odds against their enemy are HUNDREDS-TO-ONE, or better, they are fighting only un-armed old men, women, and young children.

Just as important to Blair as 'blooding' the US army for the first real time since Vietnam, an attack against Afghanistan was intended to allow major power-plays with Russia, Iran, and Pakistan. The Taliban were, of course, Pakistani forces, and if they were displaced, control of Afghanistan would largely fall to Iranian forces. This would please the Iranians, and prepare for future alliances with them. Pakistan, however, would have to be compensated for their loss.

No problem, for who should rule Pakistan, but the psychopathic butcher, Pervez Musharraf. Such little monsters have ALWAYS been trivial for the British to control, since the days of the British Empire in India. Musharraf wanted nukes, and Blair was in a position to deliver, via the good offices of the US. Pakistan had a primitive nuclear program of its own, but nothing as nice as the shiny baubles the US could provide. Musharraf thinks himself smarter than the forces that manipulate him, but so did every puffed-up peacock of a 'prince' during the days of the 'Raj'.

Pakistan chose to trade pride and land for 'power' and 'influence', placing its facilities at the forefront of Blair's program of demonisation of muslims. Pakistan thinks that by doing this, it can become top dog in the muslim world. This has the same logic of seeking to be top dog amongst the inmates of a death camp, by serving the desires of the nazi guards as best as possible.

The momentum of Blair's 911 meme was, of course, to be used for one final operation- the invasion of Iraq. Once the Iranians had been convinced of Blair's sincerity by the continuing events in Afghanistan, they were to be invited to be the major partner in the occupation of Iraq. Previously, such a suggestion would have been rejected as a very obvious trap.

Today, the value of the 911 meme is very much a mixed blessing. Blair has his thugs, whenever possible, shout down anybody who questions the official lies, but this strategy is failing fast. Blair cannot use 911 as a pretext to attack Iran.

Why doesn't Blair simply arrange another false-flag? Well maybe he will yet, after all his people are laying the ground for one like crazy over the approaching World Cup. However, the simple truth is that the method of the massive false-flag is just one tool, and while very useful when used appropriately, is a tool that does not seem to allow frequent deployment. Did we expect 911? I would say not. Do we expect Blair to act again in a similar way? Yes, very much so? It is this expectation that makes Blair's people think once, twice and three-times about whether such an operation would back-fire.

In the meantime, the 911 Truth Movement is wrong to think that widespread knowledge about the true events of 911 would destroy Blair and Bush etc. Putin already proved that you can run a false-flag, be caught red-handed, and go on to win great power through an election.

Finally, we need to keep our eyes on the ball. Blair murders muslims just as Hitler murdered jews, but in neither case is this anything other than a distraction from their true intent (and isn't that the most frightening thing of all). Blair is laying the ground for war with China, the war that ALL significant US military spending and planning is designed to fight. 911 was a stepping stone, as were the invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq, and the coming GENOCIDE of Iran. After Iran will come many more steps (and the utter destruction of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia). Once the World War starts, these events will be unstoppable (which, if you think about it, is what World War means).

Blair is about to bring us our THIRD industrial World War. The previous two were not fought to the limits of our industrial abilities, but actually ADVANCED those abilities. OUR Great War will likewise go beyond our current methods of mass destruction, and they are already WAY WAY WAY more terrible than anything imagined in our worst nightmares.

Blair has already been responsible for enough crime (rape, torture, murder, mass destruction of lives and property, corruption, blackmail) to be convicted a million times over. We are the ones that choose not only to allow this monster to have his liberty, but to rule over us with an ever expanding police state, to strip us of all aspects of human freedom and dignity, and to plan future crimes of global genocide, all the time singing "it isn't Bliar the puppet, it's Bush...er, well some other American who isn't so thick, like...er...er...you know....".

Myself, I feel little need to poke endlessly at the 911 meme. An axiom is not something you endless mither about, but a foundation on which to build new knowledge. Blair moves forward all the time, but expects his enemies to bog themselves down for ever with constant analysis of the trails he leaves behind him. His enemies must NEVER reach conclusions, but instead must be always on their way to a conclusion. Can you stop a runaway horse by always being behind it? Or do you have to catch up, or perhaps get in front?

Does the 911 Truth Movement seek to get in front of Blair (or Bush)? I think not. Many fantasize that if they find a 'smoking gun' (like the one that most decidedly DID NOT harm Putin, namely his people caught red-handed planting the LAST Moscow Apartment Bomb), the World will automatically put itself to rights. I may sound negative, as always, but what I am trying to explain is while the work done by 'backroom boys' is potentially useful, there have to be people willing to fight 'at the front'.

Let's say the 911 Truth Movement does its worst, and finds a 'smoking gun'. Result - rogue Republicans and rogue Israelis will get the blame, and Hillary Clinton will come to power. BLAIR DREAMS OF HAVING HILLARY CLINTON AS PRESIDENT, AND SO DOES ISRAEL. Iran still gets attacked, because no aspect of 911 is being used (in any real sense) to propagandise or prepare for that war. On the other hand, the 911 Truth Movement HAS delayed the use of another false-flag operation, buying us all a little more time, not that we do anything constructive with that time.

somebody post on here
decides to call themselves
spook plant
and then wonders why
they are criticised


get a grip

[but thanks for those links]

about time
you contributed something
other than the usual

hey!
thanks for those links spooky

 http://www.declarepeace.org.uk/captain/murder_inc/site/911balance.html

you are now a historical note in
that nutty conspiracy culture
you so admire!!!

always good to have a bit of balance

Hi 6!

I've adopted the moniker as that is what anbody who proclaims Alex Hones, Rense, WRH and www.tinfoilwearingloons.org to be bare-faced liars get called by a couple of the ZOG trolls here.

When I get bored of that I may move on to Bush Lover or Zionist.

I just found it rather amusing to disempower the slurs by making them direct references.

They originally came to my attention by typing '"Alex Jones" liar' into google whereupon I found the rather amusing Perry Logan website.

I posted the links from the site on another thread weeks ago and cut&paste that thread to this thread without testing. Fortune City is one of those crappy free spaces that kicks you off if you exceed bandwidth. So, sorry if any of the links have expired in the interim.

I'm considering doing a critique of Loose Change at some point. But I'm not sure I'll have a lot of time at the moment. It'll take a bit longer than responding to Jordan's drivel.

I have a housing authority to negotioate with (attack) regarding ironically enough fire safety failings in several high rise blocks... and some voluntary forestry work on top of everything else right now.

You have just risen in my estimation by posting those links. Not that that'll probably mean much to you. I just get peved at evangelists of ANY nature- including myself occassionally hahahaha!

Keep digging and asking questions. Avoid assumptions.

Spook Plant calls himself that so that when people refer to him as such, it will look like they're using his chosen name, as opposed to identifying him for what he is. Incidentally, I just started calling him "Plant", because I don't know whether he's a Spook, or just one of the Right-Wing Useful Idiots who have been dispatched to sites like this by the Hard Right's various Hate Sites.

"Until 9/11 Truth can present a substantial case ..."

Until the Fascist LIARS who used the attacks to launch an agenda of repression and military aggression, which was planned long before, and called for such a "useful crisis", can support their Conspiracy Theory with compelling evidence - starkly absent for nearly five years - 911 Truth will be here.

I'm not holding my breath, however, as these War Criminals would have held it out long ago, if it did exist.

Get some evidence and I'll be on board, but thus far all I can find is conjectured junk.

Just because I don't believe the ridiculous shite you spam, I'm a spook, a plant, a neocon, and right-wing.

This is coming from someone who thinks all jews are part of Mossad.

STFU cut&paste monkey.

Cough of your evidence of a jewish plot or refrain.

Just because some people care about nigly things lke evidence doesn't men they are your hate stereotypes.

Timelines:

Okay we have the now trite picture of severed of steel girders with unnatuarally precise cuts. But where is the evidence that they were cut PRIOR to the collapse and not afterwards as is common in rescue operations?

Why the fuck is Indymedia givng these implicit racists and defacto schizos airtime?

Isn't there enough evidence of evil wrongdoing on the planet already without having to stooop to subricing to to distraction 9/11 doctrines???

We KONW that Bush & Blair are guilty as sin. We KONW the ecosystem is fucked. We KNOW that communites are fucked by "post modernity". We KNOW thar the hard-fought rights of 19th century liberals and 20th century socialist have been reorded to the point of apathy.

I can't find any other reason for people to be paying lipservice to totally obvious nutcaase sophistry than an excuse to not engage the very real and palpable demonstratable bullshit that is raining/reigning on us.

It's also totally fucking irnoinc for any scholar of history to entertain the thoroughly anti-semtic ostrich position that pervades "9/11 Turth". By all means demand a better quality of investigation, but do not let the void be filled with knee-jerk paranoid racism.

You said "I really despair!" -- well I think a lot of people have probably dispaired of trying to convince you to actually address some of the problems that people have with the official story of the collapses -- you never do, this is why you often get to have the last word on articles (do you really think that by getting the last word in you are winning the argument?).

Yes there is some anti-semitism in parts of the 9/11 truth movement, no that kind of thing isn't tollerated here, but this is just a convient way for you to aviod answering some more pertinent questions isn't it?

You don't seem to even try answering the serious questions any more (not that you were ever any good at this), for example the comment above:  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/05/340879.html?c=on#c148204

And what about all the reports from firefighters and police about explosions?  http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060519&articleId=2474

Why does Indymedia tollerate you?

But, this question isn't one for the comments on articles, it's the kind of thing that gets sorted at face-to-face at meetings and on email lists, but of course "Spook Plant" isn't involved with those, nobody has ever met him, he has never been to a Indymedia collective meeting, there isn't really any evidence that he is an "Architect" or that he is involved with any kind of political activity other than defending the US Government's official narrative of the events of 9/11... and he wonders why people think he is a "spook plant"?!

No, I have never been to an IMC meeting. Does this mean I don't exist. Yeah, there are people who are involved with at least 1 IMC that have met me and know who I am. But, I'm fucked if I'm going to advertise that or anything else I'm doing. And certainly not under this name.

What about the firefighters? Where is the forensic evidence to corroborate what they heard was explosives? How do we know they know the difference between a car backfirig and a shotgun? You need to be able to corroborate these to make them credible. Otherwise they remain in the realms of rumour.

9/11 Truth is nothing but rumour. People looking for a theory to back their preconceptions. It's not scientific.

Crikey, I need to be proving the official version to think that stuff like Loose Change & Infowars is total crap. It still baffles me why you assume because I think this stuff is a pack of lies I'm supporting Bush/Blair= false opposition. Sounds more like a distraction from admitting I'm right abou the lack of evidence.

You really think anti-semetism is efficiently dealt with here? I know plenty who'd beg to differ- oh yeah, they must be spook plants too. You don't think a kneejerk assumption that anyone Jewish or anyone/thing Isreali is part of a Mossad plot is anti-semetic? Seem like generalisation and stereotyping to me.

I'm not an architect, and have never claimed to be. It may surprise you that I'm not the only anarchist on the planet that thinks 9/11 Truth is a sad joke.

You obviously don't like anyone who challenges your preconceptions; perhaps you should go join 9/11Truth and then you could ban from your forum.

But the forensic evidence was quickly and illegally destroyed... So I don't know how this helps bolster the official narrative...

 http://home.exetel.com.au/mikec/#forensic

 http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/destroyed.html

Editor of Fire Engineering Magazine Bill Manning highlighted concerns among the firefighting community over the barring of investigators from the crime scene:

"Fire Engineering has good reason to believe that the "official investigation" blessed by FEMA and run by the American Society of Civil Engineers is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure. Except for the marginal benefit obtained from a three-day, visual walk-through of evidence sites conducted by ASCE investigation committee members- described by one close source as a "tourist trip"-no one's checking the evidence for anything."

Manning also emphatically condemned the destruction of structural steel, declaing "The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately." Manning contrasted the operation to past disasters:

"Did they throw away the locked doors from the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire? Did they throw away the gas can used at the Happyland Social Club Fire? Did they cast aside the pressure-regulating valves at the Meridian Plaza Fire? Of course not. But essentially, that's what they're doing at the World Trade Center."

Manning indicated that the destruction of the steel was illegal, based on his review of the national standard for fire investigation, NFPA 921, which provides no exemption to the requirement that evidence be saved in cases of fires in buildings over 10 stories tall.

 http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=OnlineArticles&SubSection=Display&PUBLICATION_ID=25&ARTICLE_ID=131225

 http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/restrictions.html

There is no doubt some content on this site that IMC admins never get around to reading, so perhaps there are some anti-semitism posts or comments somewhere -- if anyone reading the site comes across such content please report it to the imc-uk-features list:  http://lists.indymedia.org/imc-uk-features

"Spook Plant" did you see this comment above:

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/05/340879.html?c=on#c148204

In case you missed it let me remind you that it cites a couple of scientific papers:

Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?
 http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

And:

The Case for Controlled Demolition
 http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/BilliardBalls.html

I would be really interested in a scientific refutation of these papers, but where is it?

Steven Jones raises "Thirteen Reasons to Challenge Government-sponsored Reports and Investigate the Controlled-demolition Hypothesis" -- where is your point-by-point refutation of this paper?

"It still baffles me why you assume because I think this stuff is a pack of lies I'm supporting Bush/Blair" -- well this is the role you seem to fall into...

"I'm not an architect, and have never claimed to be" -- ah, I thought "Architect" and "Spook Plant" were the same person... is this not the case?

I used to consider that all the 911 truth activists were barmy -- this is the standard response of the left to "conspiriacy theories" but then I read Steven Jones' paper after it was posted here (and that post was and is hidden) and it was that document that started me questioning the official narrative, then I started looking at the collapse of WTC7 ( see  http://wtc7.net/ ) and that just raised more problems with the official story... So your allegation that "You... don't like anyone who challenges your preconceptions" cuts no ice.

As for "Isn't there enough evidence of evil wrongdoing on the planet already without having to stooop to subricing to to distraction 9/11 doctrines???" well, the thing is that 9/11 has been used to justify the attack on Afganistan, Iraq (and perhaps Iran next) and all the curtailment of civil liberties since then -- what actually happened on that day and who is behind it does matter, a lot. If the truth comes out perhaps it'll stop the next war...

I see. Classic CT'er trick. Take a quote out of context to make it look like it supports you. See what Bill Manning actually is talking about was his belief that the fire was not caused by the impact and explosion, but also the general effects of the subsequent fire on the structure:

"The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers. Rather, theory has it, the subsequent contents fires attacking the questionably fireproofed lightweight trusses and load-bearing columns directly caused the collapses in an alarmingly short time"

Sound familiar? It should. That's what FEMA subsequently decided too.

Subsequent Fire Engineering articles shed some light on the magazines position. They ran a detailed report later supporting the “fire-induced” claim( http://downloads.pennnet.com/fe/wtc.pdf), for instance. And In 2003 they produced an article suggesting that the collapse was in part due to overly-relaxed building codes.

The Towers, Fire-Induced Collapse and the Building Codes

Scheurman explains that the buildings' failures were in part due to fire codes that had been too far relaxed when the city of New York revised them in 1968. " The city is presently in the process of upgrading the Building Codes in the wake or the World Trade Center disaster, and this essay is my perspective, as a retired NYC Fire Chief, in furtherance of that process," writes Scheurman.

His report concludes with, " The World Trade Center's vulnerability to fire, as confirmed by the fire spread and mode of collapse, is partially the result of the building industry's competition for, real estate dominance and financial reward, affecting the building codes over the years. The Port Authority of New York, New Jersey using corporate and public bond financing and the governmental power of the two-state agency to sidestep the already weakened, city building code requirements effectively reduced the fire resistance and suppression capabilities and collapse resistance, in the Towers. The Government should disqualify itself from competing in the real estate industry and concentrate on regulating the competition between developers to assure fire safe building construction standards and the life safety of the people. The actual fire is the ultimate test of codes and construction practices and at the World Trade Center Towers, failed the test twice."
 http://fe.pennnet.com/articles/article_display.cfm?Section=ARCHI&C=FYI&ARTICLE_ID=184582

And a later editorial shows the true focus point for Mannings anger, post the release of the 9/11 Commission Report (again, please follow the link to read the full article).

THE TAINTED BRUSH OF 9/11 POLITICS
BY BILL MANNING

In early August it was revealed by New York Newsday that New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, a month before the final 9/11 Commission Report, dispatched a strong memo lobbying the Commission for language that would cast a more favorable light on the city—and, by extension, on city management, past and present. With respect to the hottest hot-button issues surrounding the 9/11 response—radio inoperability, lack of police-fire cooperation and coordination, and the city's poor excuse for a new, "integrated" incident management system—Bloomberg's wish was granted. The Commission's final report coats the three issues with a layer of political honey.

City management had almost three years to circle the wagons to deflect obvious ineptitude and irresponsibility for which it could and should have been held accountable. Capitalizing on an accommodating and docile press, they've controlled critical information, dismissed many concerns of 9/11 families/survivors groups as grief-driven hysteria, and, with great cunning, used the firefighters who perished in the Towers for political cover...
 http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=ARCHI&ARTICLE_ID=213202&VERSION_NUM=1&p=25

Yes, he thinks there was a cover-up, but not of the type suggested by Shadowplay or on most 9/11 conspiracy sites.

Let's be quite clear: Manning is saying it’s down to politicians covering up their responsibility in terms of the emergency services response to the events, the failure of firefighters radios to carry the vital evacuate order, and so on. A point worth bearing in mind, especially with sites that use the “damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel was not enough” quote without any context.

I've randomly checked out two of your web sites.

1)  http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html


Ok so this is from? 2001

The "pancake theory"
It has many inacuracies and tautologies
Here a quote with both...
Have you actually read and understood this?

"the joists on one or two of the most heavily burned floors gave way and the outer box columns began to bow outward, the floors above them also fell. The floor below (with its 1,300 t design capacity) could not support the roughly 45,000 t of ten floors (or more) above crashing down on these angle clips. This started the domino effect that caused the buildings to collapse"

Ok I agree "angle clips" are the weakest point in this structure.

Tautology...
the joist failed then outer box columns bow then the floors fail
so the floors fail because the outer box columns bow which bowed because the floor joists fail...its a circular argument
which came first the chicken or the egg.

Inaccuracies
45,000t? No only the weight of the floors that had fallen.
So the floors are now supposed to support the 45,000 ton 10 stories? No the 47 4 in steel I-beam core plus the 200+outer steel columns are supporting the building, That's what they were designed to do after-all.
Ok Pancake Boy...
One floor falls on down on to the other the angle clips fail then that floor fails etc.
Have you actually tried to imagine what this might look like in reality?
From outside what would you see? Maybe some broken windows, a puff of dust?
Think of stripping the leaves and shoots off a stick you slide your thumb and forefinger down the stick the weakest links in the structure fail i.e. the node where the leaf joins break and the leaves fall off.
The stick remains intact because it has good strength in compression and tension. So the 47 steel columns should have survived?
How did 47 steel columns fail simultaneously? How much work would you have to do to cause that kind of simultaneous failure? What kind of energy would you have to input into a system like that in order to make it fail? Is the Law of the Conservation of Energy satisfied?

Have you looked at the collapse video of any of the buildings?

I have studied all of them frame by frame I recommend you do the same they are the only evidence we have.
the eVIDence of our own eyes.

wtc1 collapse
the first thing you see is a rapid ejection (explosion) of white smoke/dust from the centre of the floor just below where the aircraft impacted you see simultaneous explosions from the two faces of the tower that are visible.This series of explosions runs symmetrically out from the centre and towards the corners which remain intact. i.e no rapid expulsion of anything, then about 3 floors lower a second larger explosion occurs and proceeds like the first moving out and up! towards the corners This is followed by a rapid series of explosions from the middle section on each subsequent floor until the whole thing disappears behind falling smoking debris. As this series of ejections begins the top section of the tower topples then falls straight down into the lower portion of the building.
As the top section falls the lower section remains motionless (notice the lines of the windows they don't move) until the top section has almost completely fallen to the level of the floor where the plane impacted. So this entire top section of the building comprising tens of thousands of tons of concrete and steel is just somehow pulverised into nothing but smoke and dust. Watch the video, the lower part of the building remains motionless and intact while the top is pulverised as it falls, this is no domino effect or pancake. Think about what is happening to those steel columns just failing in such a massive way. How? You definitely have to add energy to the system in order to cause such a massive failure there is no other way for the laws of physics to be satisfied. What caused such a rapid flow of pulverised material from the faces of the tower in such a symmetric and ordered way? Its a chaotic system so OK maybe one such failure every thousand years?
But three in one day? Look at the data -Timeline against buildings like this failing like this...
From the first steel frame building - completely flat right up to the -10th September 2001 - then a big spike on the 11th -then nothing.
Wouldn't that spike in the data at least rouse your interest make you enquire into why exactly these failures occurred. Then to be satisfied with the Pancake nonsense. The pancake in no way explains the rapid simultaneous failure of the main structural elements of the buildings. Think about the symmetry the order inherent in ALL of the collapses, Ask yourself...
Explosion? or Pancake?
Which is the most probable explanation given the video evidence?

So you send people to a site that is pure inaccurate conjecture. Well done!

You want evidence.
That is the whole point of finding out the eeer duuuhh Truth.
Aren't you disturbed by the stunning lack of evidence? Where is the evidence? There's barely any evidence Evidence where art though? Release the evidence....... Go on lets have a look at the evidence.

2)  http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Biederman/Biederman-0112.html
Study of steel from wtc7

"Rapid deterioration of the steel was a result of heating with oxidation in combination with intergranular melting due to the presence of sulfur."
Aside - inter-granular is hyphenated and you don't spell sulphur with an f
So first question where did the sulphur come from?
Official answer Diesel? No high sulphur fuels are banned in the US.
CT would say Thermate (special military version of Thermite) i.e. Thermite +Sulphur=Thermate
The presence of enough sulphur to cause "the unexpected erosion" is suspicious to say the least
but which is the most probable? An explosive used in specialist demolition or low sulphur diesel fuel
What do the collapses look like in the video an expert demolition or "highly improbable" (NISTA) failure due to fires which were never hot enough or burned long enough?
Oxidation? well the components of Thermate are Iron oxide and aluminium mixed in a fine powder Oxidation is one of the effects of thermate as it vaporises steel.
Look at the image of the steel i-beams what could have eroded them so severely?
try here for a possible explanation
 http://www.dodtechmatch.com/DOD/Patent/PatentDetail.aspx?type=description&id=6766744&HL=ON
“'blacksmith’s weld' in a hand forge."
Well a blacksmith uses bellows to increase the oxygen flow to the , higher sulphur content fuel, coke. In order to produce temperatures high enough to weld steel. For iron to be Eutetic it has tobe above around 997 K(-273 for centigrade) for carbon steel anything up to and beyond 1400K.

This article creates more questions than it answers!

I could go on and on there are so many unanswered questions and more being created all the time. Look at the video of the collapse, study it and stop coming here banging your drum for the official line.

You have to admit that the Kean commission report is just a fiction to create the opportunity for War in Afghanistan, Iraq . All to secure routes for pipelines to bring Oil from the Caspian -so you can drive to the Shopping Mall and buy stuff when you've probably got more than enough stuff so that you have to chuck perfectly serviceable once desired stuff away to make room for it all.(Growth=Waste) So innocent Iraqis Afghans Londoners whoever are dying so that we can go shopping in our own private transport. Gliding around on rubber wheels. Cut off from reality in our little bubbles of desire and fear.
One simply must get a life darling.....

2% Human 60% Daffodil and an alarming 98% Chimp.

ATB

"Architect" there are no tricks... perhaps you miss read the threads above... So a recap might help you...

"Spook Plant" said:

"Where is the forensic evidence to corroborate what they heard was explosives?"

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/05/340879.html?c=on#c148312

Which is a fair enough question... so I pointed out that it was, mostly, illegally destroyed to prevent forensics being done and this was backed up by quoting Editor of Fire Engineering Magazine Bill Manning who said, ON THE MATTER OF THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE:

"Did they throw away the locked doors from the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire? Did they throw away the gas can used at the Happyland Social Club Fire? Did they cast aside the pressure-regulating valves at the Meridian Plaza Fire? Of course not. But essentially, that's what they're doing at the World Trade Center."

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/05/340879.html?c=on#c148317

Bill Manning wasn't being quoted for anything other than his views on the destruction of the evidence, so your tch, tch'ing is totally missing the point...

For those readers who manage to get this far in this discussion, well done, but do yourself a favour -- find a broadband connection and download some or all of the videos linked to in the article above and watch them and see what you think -- it'll be a far more fruitful excercise than reading the crap from "Architect" and "Spook Plant"...

...I have to disagree, Shadowplay. You presented that quote - whether deliberately or otherwise - in a way which seemed to suggest that Bill supported the CT position. And it's nothing of the sort.

However setting that to one side for a moment, and taking your substantive point that the steel was magically whisked away before anyone could investigate it, there's a problem.

It's not correct.

That's right. The steel wasn’t entirely cleared from the site until May 2002. Not quoite as quickly whipped away as your claims suggest.

May 29 2002: As the last steel column of the demolished World Trade Center was removed Tuesday, construction workers at the site were honored for their work there since September 11th.

 http://www.wndu.com/news/052002/news_14322.php

I especially like suggestions that this magically fast, overnight 9 month clearance operation took place before anyone looked at the steel. Dr W. Gene Corley, head of the Building Performance Assessment Team, said in his testimony to the House of Representatives:

"There has been some concern expressed by others that the work of the team has been hampered because debris was removed from the site and has subsequently been processed for recycling. This is not the case. The team has had full access to the scrap yards and to the site and has been able to obtain numerous samples. At this point there is no indication that having access to each piece of steel from the World Trade Center would make a significant difference to understanding the performance of the structures".

www.house.gov/science/hearings/full02/mar06/corley.htm

Now let me guess. You reckon he's in on the plot too, eh?

Well what about this lot

Who was in charge of the clean up at ground zero?

Appointed in the "fall of 2001"?
Marriane Lamont Horinko

Bush supporter and Contributer to the Republican Party and Bush 2004 campaign.
She used to be president of for Don Clay Asscociates
Don Clay later moved to Koch Petroleum.

Check out some of these

from www.alternet.org

The Diligent Dozen: The Lynde and Harry Bradley
Foundation, the Carthage Foundation, the Earhart
Foundation, the Charles G. Koch, David H. Koch and
Claude R. Lambe charitable foundations, the Phillip M.
McKenna Foundation, the JM Foundation, the John M.
Olin Foundation, the Henry Salvatori Foundation, the
Sarah Scaife Foundation, and the Smith Richardson
Foundation..

Combined, these 12 fund an intricate, comprehensive
network of neoliberal programs all across the country,
but their most conspicuous and powerful beneficiaries
are the Heritage Foundation, the American Enterprise
Institute, and their virtual creature the Cato
Institute, all in the nation's capital. These three
think tanks have crafted or influenced virtually the
entire agendas of both domestic and foreign policy for
the George W. Bush Administration. And the interwoven
personal network of operatives, corporate supporters
and corporate beneficiaries is sobering. [See
Sidebar.]

[SIDEBAR}
What a Tangled Web We Weave

# Jeb Bush, the President's brother, served until
recently on the Board of Trustees of the Heritage
Foundation, whose two main goals are to privatize
Medicare and public education.

# Charles Koch is a founder of the Cato Institute, his
brother David is a director. Their foundations are
major contributors to Cato, which champions the
privatizing of Social Security and federal public
lands.

# Charles and David are also co-owners of Koch
Industries, a $35 billion privately-held oil company
indicted in 1999 of cheating on its oil leases on
those lands. The Kochs and their employees contributed
generously to George Bush's several campaigns. David
Koch and his wife Julie gave $487,500 exclusively to
Republican candidates in the 2000 election cycle.
Among the energy industry donors in that cycle only
four companies -- Enron, Exxon/Mobil, Chevron, and
BP/Amoco -- outdid Koch Industries, which contributed
well over a million dollars, 90 percent to
Republicans. Koch Industries was charged by the
Clinton Administration's Justice Department with $352
million in pollution and hazardous waste violations.
The Bush Administration dropped the charges when Koch
Industries agreed to a settlement of $20 million.

# The Kochs have also given handsomely to the
neoliberal Mercatus Center at George Mason University,
as did Enron Corp. CEO Kenneth Lay. Wendy Gramm, Sen.
Phil Gramm's wife, was an ardent deregulator at
Mercatus, and sat on Enron's Board of Directors. Mr.
Lay in turn sat on the Board of Trustees of the
American Enterprise Institute. He no longer does, but
corporate America remains well represented; more than
half AEI's current trustees are CEOs of American
corporations, including Dow Chemical, State Farm
Insurance, Mead Westvaco Corporation, American
Express, Merck & Co., Motorola, and Exxon Mobil.

# Vice President Richard Cheney once served as a
Trustee of the American Enterprise Institute, too. His
wife, Dr. Lynn Cheney, is currently a senior staffer
there. So is Richard Perle, a chief architect of the
Bush National Security Strategy and the preemption
policy that drove the invasion of Iraq. Thirteen other
American Enterprise Institute staffers serve in senior
positions in the Bush Administration.
========================
 http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Funders

Koch Family Foundations (David H. Koch Foundation,
Charles G. Koch Foundation, Claude R. Lambe
Foundation)

 http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Koch_Family_Foundations

Koch Family Foundations

From Disinfopedia, the encyclopedia of propaganda.

Koch Family Foundations[1] consist of the David H.
Koch Foundation, the Charles G. Koch Charitable
Foundation, and the Claude R. Lambe Charitable
Foundation.

Funding for the foundations comes from the
conglomerate Koch Industries, the "nation's largest
privately held energy company, with annual revenues of
more than $25 billion. ... Koch Industries is now the
second largest family-owned business in the U.S., with
annual sales of over $20 billion."

"The company is owned by two of the richest men in
America," David H. Koch and Charles G. Koch (described
as 'reclusive billionaires'), who have a combined
personal fortune estimated at more than $3 billion and
who have emerged as major Republican contributors in
recent years. ... Both David and Charles Koch are
ranked among the 50 richest people in the country by
'Forbes'."

The Koch brothers control the three family foundations
that have "lavished tens of millions of dollars in the
past decade on 'free market' advocacy institutions in
and around Washington."[2] --'The Nation', "What
Wouldn't Bob Dole Do for Koch Oil?"

The foundations are financed via the oil and gas
fortunes of Fred G. Koch, a founding member of the
John Birch Society. David is a libertarian who
"provides a significant amount of funding for the Cato
Institute's $4 million annual budget."

Curtis Moore's "Rethinking the Think Tanks" (subtitled
"How industry-funded 'experts' twist the environmental
debate') appeared in the September/October 2002 issue
of 'Sierra' magazine. Moore states that when "The
views will seem to be coming from an independent think
tank -- the Cato Institute or Citizens for a Sound
Economy (CSE), for example ... behind these groups
stands the [Koch] brother's vast fortune."

In fact, Charles Koch is a co-founder of Cato in 1977
and David helped to launch CSE in 1986. This, says
Moore, is the brothers simply following in "dad's
footsteps: Fred Koch was a charter member of the
ultraconservative John Birch Society in 1958."

External Links

* Koch Industries and the Pollution of the Bush White
House, Parts I & II; on-line article includes source
links.
* "Ari & I; White House Press Briefing with Ari
Fleischer related by Russell Mokhiber regarding
relationship between White House and Koch Industries,
May 3, 2001.
========================
 http://www.prwatch.org/improp/cei.html

Michael Fumento is the author of books including
Science Under Seige and The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS,
Fumento is a virtual poster child for what right-wing
institutions can foster. Prior to CEI, he did a stint
at the American Enterprise Institute; after he left,
he went on to the Hudson Institute.
========================
 http://www.ranknfile-ue.org/uen_rwtanks.html

Not surprisingly, the work of the Heritage Foundation
is directed by monied right-wingers. Richard Mellon
Scaife, Heritage vice president, is an heir to the
Mellon fortune and a media tycoon known for his
conspiracy-theory addiction and ruthless streak. New
trustee Holland "Holly" Coors is a socialite daughter
of the wealthy and notoriously right-wing beer-making
dynasty. Jay Van Andel, the founder and senior
chairman of Amway Corp., is joined on the board of
trustees by his daughter, Barb Van Andel-Gaby, Amway’s
vice president for corporate affairs.

Heritage Foundation Secretary J. Frederic Rench is
chairman and CEO of Racine Industries. The board of
trustees also boasts: J. William Middendorf II, who is
credited with being an intellectual force behind
NAFTA; former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon;
Thomas A. Roe, the former chairman of the board of
Builders Marts of America, and the founder of the Roe
Foundation, which provides grants to conservative
organizations; Thomas L. Rhodes, president and
chairman of the board of directors of National Review;
Douglas F. Allison, chairman and CEO of Allison-Fisher
Inc., an automotive marketing research and consultancy
firm; and Preston A. Wells, a commercial real estate
and ranching entrepreneur.

More impressive still is the board of trustees of one
of the nation’s oldest and largest think tanks. The
American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy
Research (AEI) boasts 14 corporate chief executive
officers on its board, among them the heads of
Aluminum Company of America, American Express, Cigna,
CSX, Dow Chemical, Motorola, Procter and Gamble and
State Farm Insurance Presidential aspirant and
flat-tax promoter Steve Forbes, president and CEO of
Forbes Inc. is on the American Enterprise Institute
board, as is George R. Robert of Kohlberg, Kravis
Roberts & Co. (KKR), the infamous buy ’em-and-close
’em artists. Former President Gerald Ford and failed
Supreme Court nominee Robert Bork are institute
fellows.
========================
 http://www.mediatransparency.org/search_results/info_on_any_recipient.php?recipientID=81

Competitive Enterprise Institute

...It postures as an advocate of "sound science" in
the development of public policy. In fact, it is an
ideologically-driven, well-funded front for
corporations opposed to safety and environmental
regulations that affect the way they do business. (PR
Watch)
========================
 http://www.prwatch.org/improp/cei.html

CEI was also active in opposing the 1997 international
global warming negotiations in Kyoto. CEI staff
including Fred Smith, James Sheehan, Jonathan Adler
and Marlo Lewis featured prominently in a list of
"experts" provided to reporters by the industry-funded
Global Climate Coalition. "The campaign against the
1997 Kyoto global warming treaty waged by right-wing
think tanks has been another area where corporate
America has heavily invested in right-wing policy
groups that advance its interest" noted author David
Callahan in 1999."The Competitive Enterprise Institute
has been a particularly aggressive advocate of the
notion that global warming is a 'theory not a fact.'
Since 1991, CEI's budget has grown from less than $1
million to over $ 4 million." Callahan also noted that
although the extent to which conservative think tanks
rely on corporate funding support varies widely, CEI
and the American Enterprise Institute "have two of the
highest levels of corporate support, with both getting
roughly 40 percent of their 1996 revenues from
corporations."
========================
 http://www.ewg.org/reports/GeorgeWBush/enviro_advisors.html

Lynn Scarlett

Scarlett is the Executive Director of the Reason
Public Policy Institute, a project of the Reason
Foundation. The Reason Public Policy Insitute also
favors "free market" solutions to environmental
problems. Reason downplays the risks from global
warming and opposes tighter standards for particulate
air pollution.

David H. Koch of Koch Industries, a massive oil
company, sits on the board of the Reason Foundation
and is also a funder. Koch Industries is currently
under two unrelated investigations by the EPA for
environmental violations in Minnesota and the
southwest, and has paid millions in environmental
fines for other violations of the Clean Air and Clean
Water Acts. The Reason Institute, like the Pacific
Research Institute, is a member of the Heritage
Foundation's State Policy Network.

Scarlett was a senior fellow at the Foundation for
Research on Economics and the Environment (FREE), the
Montana-based organization that was exposed last year
by The Washington Post for holding anti-environmental
junkets for federal judges at a Montana dude ranch.
FREE is bankrolled by polluting interests that fund
litigation before the federal bench.

The Reason Foundation has received funding from the
Farm Bureau, Amoco, Arco, Chevron, Coors, David H.
Koch Foundation, Eli Lilly, Exxon, Ford Motors, Olin
Foundation, Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation, Mobil,
Pfizer, Philip Morris, Sarah Scaife Foundation,
Texaco, Unocal, and Xerox.
========================
 http://www.realjournalism.net/times.htm

MMMMM Oil petro dollar global warming sceptics automobile manufacturers
I wonder what's going on here.
Check em out and see what fine folks they are.

2% Human 60% Daffodil 98% Chimp

Do the Math!
1.8 million tons of rubble in 9 months!
thats around 7,000 tons a day.
could you have done it quicker?

Stay Human
When in Rome do as the Romans do, but don't become a Roman.

2%Human 60% Daffodil and 98% Chimpanzie?

 http://www.cooperativeresearch.net/timeline.jsp?the_post-9/11_world

In the month following 9/11, a significant amount of the steel debris from the WTC collapses is removed from the rubble pile, cut into smaller sections, and either melted at a recycling plant or shipped out of the US. [US Congress, 4/6/2002] Each of the twin towers contained 78,000 tons of recyclable steel. Much of this is shipped to India, China, and other Asian countries, where it will be melted down and reprocessed into new steel products. Asian companies are able to purchase the steel for just $120 per ton, compared, for example, to a usual average price of $150 per ton in China. Industry officials estimate that selling off the steel and other metals from the WTC for recycling could net a few tens of million dollars. [Reuters, 2/22/2002; Reuters, 2/21/2002; New York Times, 11/9/2001; Eastday, 2/24/2002; CorpWatch, 3/6/2002] 9/11 victims’ families and some engineers are angered at the decision to quickly discard the steel, believing it should be examined to help determine how the towers collapsed. A respected fire fighting trade magazine comments, “We are literally treating the steel removed from the site like garbage, not like crucial fire scene evidence.” [Fire Engineering, 2/2002] Rep. Joseph Crowley (D) will later call the loss of this evidence “borderline criminal.” By March 2002, 150 pieces of steel from the WTC debris will have been identified by engineers for use in future investigations (see March 6, 2002). [Federal Emergency Management Agency, 6/1/2002] A study by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), which commences in August 2002 [Associated Press, 9/21/2002; National Institute of Standards and Technology, 9/21/2002] , will have 236 pieces of recovered steel available to it. Of these, 229 pieces are from WTC 1 and 2, representing “roughly 0.25 percent to 0.5 percent of the 200,000 tons of structural steel used in the construction of the two towers.” [National Institute of Standards and Technology, 10/2005 pdf file] New York Mayor Mike Bloomberg defends the decision to quickly get rid of the WTC steel, saying, “If you want to take a look at the construction methods and the design, that’s in this day and age what computers do. Just looking at a piece of metal generally doesn’t tell you anything.” Officials in the mayor’s office decline to reply to requests by the New York Times regarding who decided to have the steel recycled. [New York Times, 1/25/2002; Eastday, 2/24/2002]


From BPST 3-6-02wtc_testimony written by Weidlinger Assocites Inc.
The full quote.
Impediments Encountered by the Building Performance Study Teams

In the 10 years in which ASCE has been conducting studies of disasters we have
learned that our teams will always encounter impediments. It is therefore not surprising
that the study team has encountered some difficulties in their data collection activities.
However, we have also learned that with time and persistence these difficulties are
either overcome or an alternate approach is found to enable the team to satisfactorily
complete their study as described below.
When studying damaged structures it is important to understand the physical
nature of the original structure as soon as possible. Commonly this is accomplished by
obtaining and studying the engineering plans of the structures. Because the team did
not have the engineering plans of the affected structures during the site visit in early
October, arrangements were made to have several of the principal designers make
presentations to the team. These briefings enabled the team to conduct their site visit
more efficiently and to better understand the structure of the affected buildings. The
delay in the receipt of the plans hindered the team’s ability to confirm their
understanding of the buildings. Through the efforts of FEMA and others, the team
received the engineering plans for the WTC Towers on January 8, 2002, and work is
proceeding.
As noted previously, there is an enormous volume of video and photographic
documentation of the events of September 11th. This type of evidence can often yield
significant insights into the failure mechanisms but it is imperative that the highest
quality video footage be used. The team did experience some difficulty in obtaining
video footage from the various television networks.
Obtaining access to the site of a disaster is always difficult and clearly the search
and rescue efforts and any criminal investigation must take first priority. However, in all
studies of this nature, gaining access to the site as soon as possible is important in
order to observe and document the debris and site conditions. For the future, it may be
useful to consider some protocol or process whereby selected individuals from the
BPST would be allowed on site in the initial days after a catastrophic event to gather
critical data.
There has been some concern expressed by others that the work of the team
has been hampered because debris was removed from the site and has subsequently
been processed for recycling. This is not the case. The team has had full access to the
scrap yards and to the site and has been able to obtain numerous samples. At this
point there is no indication that having access to each piece of steel from the World
Trade Center would make a significant difference to understanding the performance of
the structures.
Resources are always an issue with building performance studies, particularly for
one whose magnitude and scale is unprecedented. The total amount of resources
being dedicated to support the team’s activities is approximately $1 million, which has
allowed the team to do the initial reconnaissance of the site and the building materials,
begin the process of hypothesis setting, and conduct some limited testing. This raises
the question of what amount of money would be sufficient. It is our opinion that $40
million would be a sufficient amount to fully fund a comprehensive study of an event of
this magnitude and complexity.

I think they got $16M

So they didn't get on site until early October lets say 20- days after the event and they had no engineering documents or high quality video.

So ground zero was being cleared at a rate of approx. 4.6 tons per minute. 6.667 thousand tons a day
20*6667=133,340 tons already cleared. They didn't get full engineering documents until January.

And yet........
House Speaker Dennis Hastert
kicked off this year’s Engineering Excellence Awards Gala, honoring the
best engineering achievements of the year.
The evening’s top praise went to Weidlinger Associates
Inc. of New York City, which received the Grand Con-
ceptor Award for its forensic study of the World Trade
Center collapse.
“The study was about determining, as close as possible,
the truth,” said Weidlinger’s Najib Abboud, who
accepted the award.

from  http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t50592.html
Najib N. Abboud, associate principal of Weidlinger Associates Inc. The New York City-based firm led a WTC probe sponsored by the WTC leaseholder, Silverstein Properties

Now on the BPAT wtc investigation we have

Robert Smilowitz, Ph.D., P.E.
Principal, Weidlinger Associates
New York City
Expert in blast effects

Weidlinger Associates have received an estimated $10M in govt. & defense contracts since 2001.

So on the government investigation and on the Silverstein investigation we have Weidlinger Associates employees? Najib Abboud had access to DOD software for his analysis.
So how does a private company (Weidlinger Associates) working for a private company (Silverst
ein Properties) have access to Department of Defense software for use in an investigation.?

Najid Abboud's "brilliant" analysis led him to refute the "pancake " theory in favour of core collapse.
In his report for Silverstein properties (who have won an estimated 4.4 billion insurance claim on the strength of Abboud's report) he says that the planes caused some of the central core columns to fail.
Contrast this with the explanation of the complete destruction of the plane that crashed into the Pentagon, this was apparently totally shredded and destroyed by the steel columns of the pentagon.
So either a plane is shredded and destroyed or the steel structure is destroyed.
These two explanations are contradictory.
Abboud's report is another example of proof by computer animation. He has no way of knowing that the columns did fail as a result of aircraft impact yet this is the basis of his explanation. Massive steel column vs thin aluminum plane which would be the more probable survivor? And look who he's working for!
Weidlinger and Siverstein!
Weidlinger Associates in charge in both the govt. investigation and the Silverstein investigation.
Certainly no cause for concern there eh! ARCHITECT?

ATB

2%Human 60%Daffodil 98%Chimp

Sorry, I was away actually DOING something USEFUL.

Basically, there is not one shred of corroborative evidence to support any theories of missiles, bombs, Mossad, faked calls.

You reallly think that attacking a report about 9/11 is going to bring about any change at all? Like I said, if there were a solid case in 9/11 Truth there'd be every top law firm on the planet in a feeding frenzy to take the case. There isn't. The logical consequence ofthis is that any body of support will atrophy and eventually leave nothing but a tiny hardcore of supporters.

Attacking a report with rumour can never be as effective as attacking a war with solid evidence. You want to waste your time, fine. But I'll stick to te tangibles thanks.

Goo luck with the 9/11 Moribund Rumour Mill- while it lasts.

Now, if you pardon me, I'm off back to the real world to engage in something substantial.

No need to apologise you weren't missed

DOING SOMETHING USEFUL for whom I wonder
probably yourself or maybe her majesty.

couldn't agree more there's no evidence of missiles, bombs, Mossad, faked calls.

I've not mentioned any of those.

Just because someone thinks the WTC was blown up doesn't mean they speculate
about who did what with what and when. As you say there is very little evidence ,some of the reasons for which are outlined in previous posts .

You know there are some that actually believe that Morphing Lizard Aliens carried out the attacks.... And that the Queen and Bush are indeed morphing Lizard Aliens out to conquer Earth..

All the sources I've used are available on-line for any one to see they include US Govt. documents and mainstream media as well as scientific papers there are no rumors as you put it. This stuff is available as public record.

As for change nothing will happen with your pessimistic , defeatist apathetic approach . Maybe thats just what you want no change? You want to carry on
raping the Planet just to satisfy your empty desires. I suppose you would like GWB
and his petro mates to continue to rule the earth with their weapons of fear surprise and a fanatical devotion to CARBON release.

You can't get no... no no no SATISFACTION.....no no no

Anything is possible yes even that the Queen is a morphing alien, but I think it's highly improbable .

There are already and continue to be Law suits and there are Lawyers representing the families of the people who lost their lives. People in the USA are holding Peoples Grand Juries. Where they are calling for the indictment of Silverstien, Rockefeller, Cheyney, Bush and others .

Come down to MATILDA and see the films.

As for change well it might as a minimum change Bush's ratting in the poles . It might even bring a change in regime it might bring an end to the Humans addiction to oil and consumerism. who knows what will happen. ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE
The only thing that has a zero probability is just that, something having a zero probability.

And that's the land you occupy isn't it SPOOK the land of zero probability
pessimism apathy despair defeated bowed conquered by your fear of what's really possible.

As for me all I want is an end to this mindless dependency on oil that means we have to, like gangsters to, steal it off people. To me the whole involvement of UK in the interests of a few billionaire Humans in a democracy is morally reprehensible.

Anything to alert the rest of us dispensable types to what these leaders of ours are like - as HUMANS- and how they regard the rest of us
Forward with evolution lets try and get to 3% human soon eh then maybe we could come up with a sustainable way of existing on this isolated island of life EARTH.

As for the real world I suppose you mean the sliding action of your latest DVD burner tray or the maybe the smooth lines of a Ford Tipex. Or watching big brother live or maybe speculating on Wayne Rooney's big toe bone or sitting in endless traffic .
What about the REAL WORLD OF THE VICTIMS OF 9 11 you obviously don't give a toss for them.

Thanks for the good luck wishes
hope you cheer up soon and
Stay Human
Forget your robot rules of order.
Viva La Evolution..

2% Human 60%Daffodil 98% Chimp

Yeah, just because I ladle derision on the conspiraloons can only mean I am part of the conspiracy. The logic would make any petulant infant proud.

People's courts and scientific papers so topical they have no professional currency. PNAC must be quaking in their boots. Next you'll be telling me that Citizens' Advice Bureau has taken the reigns and Max Hastings is doing the PR.

Yeah, I'm a selfish evil person who hangs around more selfish and evil people. Selfish and evil people who actively oppose WMDs and climate change. Real scary bastards. We may come round and condition your topsoil if you keep up your threatening line of investigation. Or perhaps worse, do something on your behalf whist you go off chasing straw men. If you're really unlucky we'll ask you to do something that really matters.

I've seen the films. They are largely delusional/suppositional. Nothing compared to reams of evidence of targetting civillians in illegal wars based on blatant and provable lies. Let alone the WMDs we can actually pinpoint on an Ordinance Survey map of Great Britain.

But, I guess the DaVinci Code is more widely read than Chomsky. Says it all.

Good luck with the Grail and the Priory of Scion.

OH DEAR OH DEAR
you really are one sad little f*!@
ARE YOU PSYCHOTIC?
ARE YOU ON SOME KIND OF MEDICATION? steady with those steroids they make you aggressive you know
MAYBE YOUR A SOCIOPATH?
What's it to you that I'm persuing this line ?
What you scared of eh?
have you got anything USEFUL to say on this issue
or do you just NAME CALL
Those building were demolished NO QUESTION (in my opinion)
You have no argument other that slurs and ne ne ne ne ners
MAX F Hastings would be very proud of you

We're all doomed Captain
We may as well end it now
all is despair and gloom
What the point?

It looks like it's just me and you now Spooky
every body else has got bored...

If your doing so much USEFUL stuff how come you've got time to waste writing you defeatist drivel
on here.
why is it so important to get the last word?
Just following orders eh?
Well its a job pays for your two weeks in the sun
Mortgage Car loan?
Gas bill? they've got you by the short and curlies mate.

Get back to your empty land F@*k wit
Conclusion..... they think he's insane, but he out ranks them.......

AYAASFFW
TTFN

STAY HUMAN

only 2% HUMAN 60%DAFFODIL 98% CHIMP

Well for a start it pisses me right off that loons spam this place with utterly unfounded paranoid shite. It makes us all look like loons and halfwits.

Wow! you really do believe anyone who thinks 9/11 Truth is guff is some sort of spook! That's so funny. I'll remember that when I'll humping large tree trunks up and down muddy hills in the rain for no money or when I'm talking to the Police's Central Procressing regarding fixed penalty notices they have given me. Oh, I forgot, people like me justwalk between the raindrops... and through walls.

You don't need a mortgage for flat in a tower block full of junkies, nor for a teepee in a forest.


Why do I have so much time to answer this drivel? The simple answer is that we all have to relax sometime, and unfortunately I have to come back to civilisation more frequently than I'd like, and responding to this stuff hardly taxes your brain... since there isn't anything substantial to e dealing with in th e first place.

Go do something useful. You'll feel much better about your life.

Hurray we agree on something
It also pisses me off that loons spam this place with utterly unfounded paranoid shite

The problem is that we are half-wits.
Yes every human on the planet is a half-wit.
Spook like me you're a half-wit.
So I just try to use the half of my wits that function at least half of the time.
I believe I'm doing something useful. And I'm not dissatisfied with my life.

You think I'm deluded fair enough that's your opinion.
(miss)information is a weapon too.

I've studied the video evidence and have deliberately ignored any speculation or CT'ism and tried to concentrate on one issue, and that is that WTC1,2,7 were deliberately demolished using explosives.
It's just information that's all . As opposed to the lack of information in the mainstream. All I want to do is redress that imbalance as much as i can. To me that seems like a useful thing to do.
I'm just saying there are questions as to truth of the official story - that the official story legitimises the war on terror. The war on terror legitimises the preemptive wars in asia and is the only way the industrial-milatry complex can justify its continuing existence. The war on terror is illegitimate and founded on a false premise A LIE. there is no enemy other than those created by the SPOOKS and their leaders.

You are a victim of the war of information because you link anyone who believes that September 11 was
deliberate demolition with "Conspiraloons"- I'm a loon I'll grant but I'm no Conspiraloon.

I think your best off in a teepee in the woods lifting logs.

Now I'm off to put me hedge clippings in the compost bin. Now that is USEFUL.
Make compost not war.
Keep an eye on those WMD's though.
Share Information.
Stay Human.

2%Human

Heehee, cheers for the laughs. Can't wait to get back to the mulch.

All the best!

XXX

Aye

All the best

XXX to you.

2%.

I find it rather ironic that one of the strongest voices against Loose Change is the so-called 911 truth movement.

 http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/green/loose_change.html

Stay in touch if you ever feel like doing something tangible, streneous or feel you have something I'd be interested in. Don't worry I'm the oddball minority in my circle of friends hahaha!

 prinzerle@hotmail.com

Be aware the anything you write may be intercepted by the Soil Association or its shills.

Just say no to soap!

If you did you might have noticed that it points out that "it's not the most accurate movie of its type" and it links to one of the pages on  http://911research.wtc7.net/ that points out some problems in great detail... And also the the article then goes onto list some better films...

Some more info on the film -

What, Then, is Amiss With “Loose Change,” the New 9/11 DVD Promoted by FOX?
 http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/12/1787340.php

And this flyer to hand out at showings -

Sifting for Gold in Loose Change . . .
 http://www.911research.wtc7.net/materials/supplements/loosechange.html