The French government and the Hijab

Simon | 09.03.2004 12:31 | Education | Social Struggles | Sheffield

Public meeting on the topic of Marxism and Religion

The French governments decision to ban the Hijab has divided the left, what should socialists say about it? Is it correct as a part of the fight for secular education, or an attack on Muslims freedom of expression and religion?

Tuesday 9th 7.30pm at the Rutland Arms (Brown street)

Come and debate the ideas...

Simon
e-mail: Dante_Sh88@yahoo.com
Homepage: http://www.fifthinternational.org.uk

Comments

Hide the following 20 comments

What about.....

09.03.2004 13:06

....the French government and the crucifix? Or the French government and the turban? Or the French government and the yarmulke? ...........?

Or are you saying it's just hajibs they're banning?

Afinkawan

what about

09.03.2004 13:56

the fact that most french muslims SUPPORT the ruling?!?

djome

dont shoot yourself in the foot

09.03.2004 16:16

the french ruling on the hijab specificly affects women, ask yourself how feisable it would be for a muslim woman to turn up to the rutland arms? (by the way the rutland arms is a pub)

destroyer of culture

not the state

09.03.2004 17:16

i think the old sayings "womens right to choose and no interference by the state." fits nicely.

the ban will only encourage anti-muslim feelings.do you honestly believe that practising muslim women want this ban. in the anti-movement we have worked extremely effectively with the muslim community.the most militant, articulate people were usually muslim women wearing headscrafes.the left in france have shot themselves in the foot by supporting this divisive ban.

there are going to be lots of debates around this issue. sure to be one at the ESF!!

red letter

by choice alone

09.03.2004 20:33

a friend, her mother english, her father from pakistan; was brought up very westernised and doesn't adhere to islam.
quite often she chooses, as is her right, to wear a hajib. for her its a fashion statement, comfortable to wear and affords her anonimity.
what next; we cut the curly locks from the heads of orthodox jews, demand nuns not wear habits?
i hate organised religion (with capitalism and borders/states it completes the trinity of despair, division and want) but this is a step too far.

no body in particular

Hijab

10.03.2004 01:33

There a lot of hypocrisy about the hijab in particular - I've seen it frequently claimed that it's a religious requirement, when there are no hadiths that can be traced to Mohammed and nothing in the Quran that mentions head coverings in any way.

The Quran merely recommends that women are dressed modestly, which is generally accepted to refer to covering the breasts, which many Arab women did not do at the time of Mohammed. This is not an issue of translation - there is no mention of women covering their heads being mandatory or desirable.

Yarmulkes and turbans are religious requirements, hijabs and crosses are not, they are merely expressions of faith.

Also, it's indisputable that, while many women wear the hijab out of choice, many others are forced to with the threat of violence.

You can still be a practising, devout Muslima without covering your head, or a Christian without wearing a cross.

Simply, the ban is wrong, but the hijab is a complex symbol. For some Muslim women, it's an ostentatious display of their religious extremism and their contempt non-Muslims and their society. For most, it's a simple expression of faith.

Marco

are you stupid or just insensitive

10.03.2004 17:03

red letter, i realise that the pro-hijab/human rights group are probably led by muslim women, but that is not the point. The rutland arms is a pub and because muslims do not drink alcohol they are unlikely to go there. Secondly muslim women are often more vulnerable and shy then muslim men so they are even less likely to go there. I know why workers power chose the rutland - it is free, that is the same reason why other left wing sects go there.

destroyer of culture

dear culture destoryer

10.03.2004 17:14

of course having this debate in the pub is a stupid idea, i not suggesting otherwise.

please send your complaint to the right address.

red letter

er...

11.03.2004 01:29

I dont mean to troll here, after all, whilst I kind of admire the french demand that NONE of this should be an issue (by banning ALL religious symbolism) - I ultimately dont care what Muslim women wear if they really want to, however....

>i think the old sayings "womens right to choose and no
>interference by the state." fits nicely.

Its not entirely unreasonable to point out that many Muslim women dont, when it comes down to it, have much of a free choice.
They can be are under tremendous pressure to conform.

I realise that i'm stepping beyond simple headscarves here but...
Are you seriously gonna suggest that ALL muslim women wear headscarves/ and or veil for fun.
Are you telling me that the Burkha is a serious chosen fashion item amongst the women of Afghanistan ?

Some women claim that it frees them from the attention of men but I would point out (and i'm sure to be crucified for my honesty here but i've seen it from Albania to Turkey to Iran) that in *some* places in the world, men cant seem to behave themselves around unveiled western women because they are not used to the sight of unveiled women.

Before I get a few "rent an experts" on my back, i'd also point out that nowhere in the Koran (I believe - i'll admit, i'm not an expert)does it actually say that women should be covered up in this manner, simply that they should act with "modesty" - which is an interpretation that can be applied to all major religions.

In many parts of the world, only now are women getting the courage to fight back against the blind dogma applied their religion (ultimately "decreed" by men) - funny how in the west where there isnt the amount of pressure many are suddenly jumping to defend it.

anyway, just my 2cents euro.... Flame away - i'm wearing my flame retardant Burkha.

bubba

France Hijab Ban - Good information page on it

11.03.2004 06:26

Lot of confusion on some of the issues. Check out this page on it.

observer
Homepage: http://www.inminds.co.uk/french-hijab-ban.html

YES HIJAB IS IN THE QURAN

11.03.2004 06:43

I am fed up of non-Muslims telling me what my religion is about! This is cultural imperialism gone crazy. When was the last time a Muslim explained to a socialist the finer points of Das Capital? Yes Hijab is in the Holy Quran, we wear it because it is part of our religion not a sybmol of fashion statement. In Surah Nur in the Quran it even explains that the hijab left on the head is not enough and must be drawn down and forward to cover the chest also. You can choose to like or hate the hijab, but don't say its not part of my religion. Besides any one with any sense can see that the french ban is little to do with banning a head dress and everything to do with persecuting its minority Muslim population - if Muslims didn't wear hijab they would have picked on something else.

muslim

hijab ban won't set anyone free

11.03.2004 11:40

Think this through. French govt have banned wearing of hijab in schools, by both teachers and pupils. Anyone wearing one will be excluded.

Let's assume for the sake of argument there are some Muslim women who would rather not wear hijab but are pressured to do so. (Much as other women are pressured to wear make-up and shave their legs, but let's leave that aside for now...) Will this ban help them?

Only if you imagine that the pressure will magically be lifted as all involved suddenly realise the error of their ways owing to wise new law from great + good French state which has been such a friend of Muslims down the years, ho ho.

Surely more likely any woman in that position will continue to face same pressures and will have a choice of being seen to side with state against family/community, or, more likely, quit school and go elsewhere. Result: more exclusion + marginalisation of Muslim women, leaving them fewer choices and freedoms. Is that the aim?

kurious

NO HIJAB IS NOT IN THE QURAN

11.03.2004 14:44

'muslim' is being disingenuous. In addition to having researched this thoroughly, I've just re-read Surah Nur, and the relevant words (Yusuf Ali translation): 'Draw their veils over their bosoms'. Covering the breasts.

I defy any Muslim on earth to explain to me where in the Quran it specifically states the covering of the HEAD, not the BOSOM, is required.

I am sick of some Muslims with limited knowledge of their own religion disagreeing with the opinion of Muslim scholars and the obvious facts, there in black and white, and clear to anyone prepared to do some checking.

As I said, this is NOT a translation issue, the words are simply NOT THERE. They DO NOT EXIST. The Quran does not mention covering the head, at all.

The Hijab is NOT a religious requirement. It is a symbol of faith, a symbol of cultural 'otherness'. But it is NOT a religious requirement.

Marco

NO HIJAB IS NOT IN THE QURAN

11.03.2004 15:06

Marco

Hijab is in Holy Quran

12.03.2004 00:49

Yes Marco Hijab is from Quran.

In the reference you mention from Surah Nur, the english translated "veil" refers to head covering. In the same way as a reference to say a womans skirt should cover her knees does not mean you take the dress of her body and just cover her knees in the same way here it says the head covering should cover the chest meaning that the head covering should not stop at the head i.e. like a hat covering just the hair, but rather should come down to cover the front - neck/chest area.

I do not know of any Islamic scholar who suggests hijab is not part of Islam, which scholar are you refering to? Yes there are plenty of orientalists but thats another matter.

Please do not preach my religion to me.

muslim

France Hijab Ban - Good information page on it

12.03.2004 00:55

Sorry the web address seems to have got lost.

Here it is:

http://www.inminds.co.uk/french-hijab-ban.html

observer
Homepage: http://www.inminds.co.uk/french-hijab-ban.html

Islamphobia - an online resource

19.03.2004 13:42

My homepage includes a resource on Islamophobia, including a tabulated summary of the research-based definition of Islamophobia developed by the Runnymede Trust, a short intro to Islam and its diversity, and links to stories and articles pertinent to the page's subject - quite a few on the hijab issue, of course.

http://uk.geocities.com/plimfix/headscarf.html

Yakoub
mail e-mail: plimfix@btopenworld.com
Homepage: http://uk.geocities.com/plimfix/tasneem.html

InstructionsAboutVeil

14.05.2004 22:45

verse from quran
"Ayesha (radhiallaho unha) reported that once her sister, Asma (radhiallaho unha) visited her in finery------while the Prophet (sallallaho alaihi wasallam) was at home. He (sallallaho alaihi wasallam) turned away from her and said, “O Asma, when a woman reaches puberty it is not lawful for her to uncover any part of her body except this.” He (sallallaho alaihi wasallam) then pointed to his face and hand. (Abu Daood)"

The above narration is one of the most commonly presented as proof for leaving the face and hands uncovered but doesnt include leaving the head uncovered.

all believers and non belivers go to this site and judge for yourself if it is essential for a muslim woman to cover up there heads.

http://www.themuslimwoman.com/HerDress/InstructionsAboutVeil.htm

Jhangeer Tariq
mail e-mail: jhangeertariq@hotmail.com

veiled information

26.05.2004 10:26

Jhangeer seems to bear out Marco's last post: this is *not* from the Koran at all. Probably it is a hadith, but it should be obvious from its very nature (an anecdote about the Prophet) that it couldn't possibly be Koranic.

PostState

it's only in schools

17.09.2004 06:18

This ban is for ALL religious symbols, clothing, etc... and it is only within SCHOOLS. This is not religious oppression, this is eliminating the potential for religious discrimination in the school system. The only people complaining about this ban are muslims. They need to either adapt to the highly secular society in France or leave.

Doss