Christian Fundamentalists plan independent sheffield school network...

I hope this and any subsequent meetings will be 'invaded' by evolved apes chanting verbal
'asteroids' to get rid of these damned dinosaurs.

(they'll try telling kids that the US Grand Canyon was created instantly as a recent
book in the US is reported to have said. Author- a former geologist who previously
told the facts-then had an intellectual breakdown (found god)-hence the book).

I have no sympathy with the idea of such a school and I feel very sorry for the kids whose parents would send them, but...

One of my main objections to the state school system is that it imposes (among loads of other shit stuff) an idea from central government to people everywhere as to how education should be conducted and what should be taught. So, while I think everything they stand for is pretty dangerous, I wouldn't actually campaign against the right of parents to choose a school like this. I would, however, support any kid who refused to be 'educated' in such an environment.

I guess my point is that decisions about education should be taken by a local community. If you hold that view, it's hard to argue that this should apply only to people who agree with your world view.

What do other people think?

I agree with Poon's point. While I find the idea of people teaching their children this shite despicable, I can't in good conscience advocate that a campaign be instituted to stop them. Unfortunately in this case, people have a right to educate their children in whatever manner they choose. It would be a slippery slope to start dictating what people can teach within their own alternative schools. The same logic could be applied to attack any parent who choses to educate their child outside of the "system"....see what I'm getting at?

If they were trying to start teaching creationism in ALL schools, then I would say they should be stopped. And I would most definitely support any child who rebelled and refused to be sucked in by these beliefs. But if they want to create their OWN schools where they teach their unfortunate children their "ideas" about the world...well, as long as they keep it in their own corner, I can't see any reason to stop them.

While I see where Poon and co. are coming from, there are still some extremely worrying issues. Also, as far as I know local authorities can already monitor and, if necessary, affect the education home-schooled children get - they just choose not to do so because it uses lots of resources and they're not really concerned.

One of my issues is that there is a difference between teaching children by different methods, or concentrating on certain areas (which is what most home-schooling families and alternative schools are doing) and teaching them a course of deliberate indoctrination based on a 2000-year-old text. The latter could be described as intellectual abuse.

A second worry is the possible (likely?) negative effects of an 'evangelical christian' education - not just the difficulties of adjusting to normal society after being fed a pack of myths for ten years or more, but that a bible-based course of study would be likely to be sexist, disciplinarian, encourage religious prejudice and discrimination, and leave kids with even more severe sexual hang-ups than society produces anyway. If you doubt this, talk to people who went to Catholic schools a generation ago before they were properly inspected and brought into the state system. Or look at the disaster of 'abstinence only, keep yourself "pure" until marriage' sex-education programs in the US.

Also, I'm concerned by the comment in the article that christians have little influence in mainstream education. Having talked recently to a former primary school teacher who cited the worryingly high numbers of evangelical christians in teacher training as the main factor that would have persuaded her to stay in the profession (in order to try to counteract them, that is), I wonder how much influence these people want. It seems that like other fundamentalist religious groups such as India's BJP some of them are unhappy with anything less than total dominance.

Poon and co talk about supporting children who rebel - how is this to be done, exactly? Do you expect seven-year-olds to turn up at anarchist meetings saying, 'Please help, I'm being indoctrinated'? Various bits of the bible specifically enjoin punishment for rebellion against parents - how are they supposed to get out? In any case, kids don't generally rebel by saying 'I don't want to be at this school - give me a proper education'. Not knowing any different, they just tear loose against society generally - and get smacked down.

Sheffielders - I'd spoof this for all you're worth - not just monkey suits but posters and leaflets advertising an anarchist schools network, evangelical Islamic schools network, pagan schools network (compulsory naked goddess-worship every Friday...) - that should put the cat among the pigeons...

Love n Rage

Anyone else think if this was Muslim fundamentalists there'd be a national outcry?

Laura is spot on. Poon and co. can't see the anarchist wood for the libertarian trees.

There are already Islamic fundamentalist schools turning out schoolkids who can't add up, can't read English, can't spell, but CAN recite the Koran by heart and strip an AK47 in under a minute.

How can a Christian / Sikh / Jewish / Jainist / Satanist school possibly be any worse?

And where are these Islamic schools that don't teach kids to read, pray tell?

Religious schools divide the working class - fact
The BNP support religious schools for this very reason - fact
We are playing into their hands by allowing religious schools because of "freedom of choice", i presume the guy who put that was libertarian/anarchist cos if you want to get your theory right - little kids dont have the choice as said earlier they will simply be indoctrinated. Total freedom means no schools including religious schools and some other airy fairy way of educating people will be created.
I do not believe in token gestures therefore i do not think that we should just "support rebbelling kids" because that is a kop-out, an excuse for doing nothing. It is similar when the SWP said "we want to support rebbeling labour MPs so we will not occupy the labour party conference".

Doing nothing makes me angry.

Here is some info on religious schools from the British Humanist Association:  http://www.humanism.org.uk/site/cms/contentViewArticle.asp?article=1268

Most anarchist/socialist so far are pounding on the idea of another world being possible.
This is a fact we know!

What world? What possible world we citizens and consumers of the present world are not quite sure entirely. Yes, we are told by activist here and there that it involves another way of marketing that is against free-trade policies that exists today. Other anarchist speak of a world without rival politics, to be replaced instead by a complete world revolution of government for all citizens of this earth.

Now, for the moment both these aims have so far been political and economical as the two are rarely separated. However these same anarchist that advocate and petition for better marketing policies and universal and fair government have not and to some extent cannot transform the hearts and minds of greed, nationalism, patriotism, culture, domestic differences and ethnic differences. In short where hatred and ignorance shows and reigns.
What has anarchist socialist culture done to rival these conflicts by their desired alternative?
How can you replace someone's ethnic identity, domestic attitude, sexual desire and cultural traditions?
How can you all of a sudden urge one nation to be equal to another after eons of inequality?
How can the current taught and practiced economical methods and the culture it created be abolished without the same insights existing afterwards if there is no alternative culture and modes of life to replace it and show itself as THE only possible future?
What can anarchist do to prevent pornography or is that sort of exploitation freedom!
What can anarchist do to prevent harmful literature and artistic expressions or is the sort of films and music that depicts killing and drug use as power nothing to meddle with?
Sexual offences, role-models highlighting violence and drug use, freedom of expression that provokes hatred, personal antagonism of dislike all these exits and are breed as ideas and desires first. Can anarchist abolish these thoughts and the human conditions that drive them? What alternative is there to these natures that will not destroy the aim of another possible world. As long as these anarchist resist authority while having no moral or ethical value to replace the existing ones then the Christian or Sikh, Republicans or arbitration will be necessary. Therefore children will need to know a world and study in a school whereby they are taught against harmful nature and incitments of moraly wrong institutions.

Some one commented on 2000 year old text being dangerous. That is funny because the military style and educational structure and even political structure are structures and styles that have been the way of practice for over 2,500 years. Or why is Plato still read today?

And Pythagoras theorem still taught in schools? None of the commenters even highlighted or showed any reflection of understanding of Christian teaching. Nor do they show they have insight in it.

If anyone wants further insight go to Passionbomb.com and see what a free-free world desires.

 http://www.geocities.com/resolution1948/Responsibility.htm
Peace in Christ

The Remnant

OK, I agree with everything that laura and others are saying about the negative effects of a christian fundamentalist education. I know people who've experienced it, I know it's totally fucked up.

I also acknowledge that my 'supporting the kids' argument is kind of weak. I don't have a simple answer for the question about how we'd go about doing that...and of course it is incredibly hard for kids with that level of indoctrination to rebel at all, let alone in a constructive way. So, you've got me there. On a practical 'what-would-I-do' level...I'm not really sure.

However, if I can turn the question around, what can be done on a similarly practical level to stop kids from having to endure this kind of shit? Obviously we could have a decree from central government that religion was not allowed in schools. For me that's just not an option. What else are we going to let government dictate about how our children are educated?

If you agree with me on this, who does have the authority to say that people are not allowed to teach their kids in a particular way?

I noticed on the news the other day that for the first time in this country a school might be about to formally become a co-operative. I live and work in co-ops and greatly value the local control that they give and would love to see co-op schools springing up everywhere. Each parent would be a member and would have an equal say in how the place was run. If they were kept quite small, this would give huge power to parents (and ideally the kids themselves) to decide what would be taught and how.

Despite the stuff that others have said in this thread, much of which I agree with, my basic position remains the same. If we had schools like I describe above, and all the parents at one of them wanted to teach christian fundamentalist nonsense to their kids, WHO would have the right to stop them? And how would you do it? Burn their school down?

I'm not saying we should do nothing...I just don't know what would be the right thing to do. If people have practical suggestions, I'd genuinely be interested to know what they are.

This is a really interesting debate...thanks to everyone who's contributed so far :-)

I like POON consider this a tricky issue. In my “State” education I was indoctrinated with many modern scientific myths. A considerable amount of these so-called “Scientific facts” I has since discovered are based on dubious evidence and are in essence a faith premise. I deeply disagree with the conclusions these fundamental evangelicals have about the creation of the earth, however I must at the same time admit my beliefs about the same are based on incomplete scientific evidence. I would not support any organised repression of alternative understandings of creation. How many of us take the time to study in a detailed way these theories of creation, even less the theories put out by people we don’t much like.
Children’s education divides thinking and people like no other, hence the long list of responses to this article. I have many Muslim friends and although we don’t share the same religious beliefs we get on fine. Nevertheless when discussing what our children should be taught the tensions mount. I believe many of these tensions would be lessened if children were encouraged to learn and explore for themselves. More “self-learning” and discovery, less “given facts” and “indoctrination” be that religious or scientific. I do not support education that would restrict alternative views. The hard facts are that little can be done to stop parents indoctrinating their children (much of which is accomplished in the early years of education and all parents do it!) but a school which offers a wider more inclusive perspective would at least give some freedom of choice as the child develops. The only people who are likely to resist this approach are people insecure about their own beliefs. Attempts to indoctrinate and exclude other alternative beliefs are born of insecurity and a feeling that their particular belief is not being listened too (Hence Schools proposed as above).
I say resist small schools that seek to bring together the children of like-minded parents / teachers and challenge some of the scientific dogma that is still prevalent as ever.

SheffJeff

So what are we going to do about it?
i think it is important that it is stopped but i have to admit how is a difficult question and i am not sure that the monkey costumes will cut it - but it is better than nothing.

THE ONE AND ONLY solution is simple....there is no real need for discussion...and this can be said for a great deal of issues...

there is no debate, creationism is absolutey moronic...don't tolerate it, don't tolerate them....harsh but I'm fed up of even giving these people a forum to speak there insane rubbish...surely there has to come a time where idiots like these people should be ignored. The very idea of them having kids let alone teaching them their beliefs is abhorent to me...what possible use are they?

I understand that this will break rules of freedom of speech etc, human rights etc...frankly I have had enough of this society wasting precious time with these kind of people when there are a hell of a lot of more pressing issues.

The bible is a metaphor...

Let's see how much they deny science and reasoning next time one of their kid is crying his eyes out 'cause she has broken her leg!

Are they going to church and pray for her to get well or do they take her to hospital to see a qualified doctor whom, by believing in scientific facts and reasoning, actually gained the knowledge and skill to make all of us better? See if the local vicar can fix it...

Eddie is right, by being democratic we let have a forum, but maybe we should be a bit more like they are...