SWP: on self-destruct?

maomau | 08.07.2003 11:08 | Sheffield

brief critical report on marxism 2003

reprinted article from Urban75

At Marxism, Lindsey German claims gay and lesbian rights should not be a "shibboleth"

Marxism was similar to last year in that it was down on numbers from previous years and really lacking in terms of young people and a racial mix.

Nonetheless there were still busy sessions and it was still the biggest event on the left by quite a way. Some interesting sessions but the usual over the top happy clappy stuff, and being asked to join 100s of time over the day.

However a few things really disturbed me and they revolved around the upcoming Peace and Justice Alliance which will by all accounts be a popular front.

At the Galloway session it was just nauseating. Galloway, Andrew Murray (who went out of his way to say how great it was that Charles Kennedy was part of STW)) and Lindsey German literally fawned over each other. At one point Galloway even cracked a joke about nothing inappropriate going on between him and Lindsey German when they stayed in hotels up and down the country. I mean what the fuck?! Not a nice image, and more to the point a comment that Lindsey German would not have appreciated off men in general but laughed out loud when "Gorgeous" George waxed his stuff....I nearly puked up

They all said how great the other people on the platform were and even made jokey references to the session being like an Oscar ceremony, and they weren't wrong!

I mean I totally support the unconditional defence of Galloway in the face of media attacks on the STW movement and also appreciate his anti-imperialist stance, but TWO standing ovations for a man who is at the end of the day a Stalinist is just totally over the top. A defence of Galloway is one thing, idolising him another.

But far more disturbing than the sycophantic on goings on the platform was the SWPs evident lurch to the right. When questioned from the floor (in a different session) about the danger of the Peace and Justice being a popular front Lindsey German side stepped with remarks about Islamophobia - and it was a Workers Power member speaking so she knows we're not like the AWL and therefore it was just a cheap way to get out of it. Indeed the speaker stressed how good the united front with Muslim groups in the STWC had been, but pointed out a popular front was a very different thing.

But then it got even worse. Another WP speaker asked about the danger to gay and lesbian rights with a united front with religious groups. Lindsey German replied that while she supported gay and lesbian rights in full, it shouldn't be a "shibboleth" to stopping socialists making links with other groups in society. WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?! Gay and lesbian rights a shibboleth!!! It was outrageous. Then she went on to say how the SWP wouldn't question a Christian about their views on gay and lesbian rights if they wanted to join the SWP so why was it any different with Muslims. I mean this is just unbelievable. Are the SWP seriously saying they wouldn't bother to find out if a religious person was homophobic if they wanted to join the SWP and were from a religion which is known to be homophobic?!?!?!

All I can say is that Marxism (on the back of the disgusting behaviour of the SWP in Birmingham) confirmed many growing fears I have about the Peace and Justice Alliance. What do SWPers on here have to say?! I distinctly remember cliffite saying he'd think about leaving if this kinda thing happened. Well what now? Join anti-capitalist and do the right thing…..

maomau

Comments

Hide the following 65 comments

Moan moan moan

08.07.2003 11:37

It is of course important that people remain critical of any and all left parties, but this "critical report" is surely just another sectarian rant, coming at a time when unity has to be the most important thing.

Nauseating as it may be when people slap each other's backs, a little (wry) support for the level of broad-based unity within the STWC, and the wider peace movement, wouldn't be amiss.

There's nothing wrong with welcoming Lib Dems and *anyone* into the peace movement, as the Iraq War has helped to radicalise many otherwise "apolitical" people.

"They all said how great the other people on the platform were" - I suppose you'd rather they were publicly attacking each other and presenting the world with yet another bitter, divided peace movement? What's that? Oh - you would? Ah.

And what's with this "a man who is at the end of the day a Stalinist "? I'd love to see any proof or justification for this. As far as I can see, Galloway is a harmlessly dodgy, womanising, permatanned politico, but he is a genuinely committed socialist (unlike most Labour MPs) and a great public speaker.

He's hardly about to unleash a wave of purges (quite the opposite is happening to him in fact) and suppress the Kulaks, is he?

"It was a Workers Power member speaking so she knows we're not like the AWL" - Ah! Now we see! Its more tiny ultra-leftier-than-thou groups getting stroppy about the lack of 'respec' afforded them by the SWP.

"Are the SWP seriously saying they wouldn't bother to find out if a religious person was homophobic if they wanted to join the SWP and were from a religion which is known to be homophobic?!?!?! "

Quite apart from the OTT question and exclamation marks, it is depressing to once again see Islam referred to as a "homophobic religion."

It is as stupid and irrational as any religion, but to tar all Muslims with the same brush is to deny their basic individual humanity. Shame on you.

Better to have them on the side of peace than rejecting them and letting the extreme right and VERY homophobic likes of Abu Hamza and bin Laden hoover up the remains, isn't it?

People people, lets stay together, there is a real enemy to fight, they are very obvious; they have all the money, bombs and power, and as ever they will be pissing themselves to see once again the Dave Sparts of this world slagging each other of over minor doctrinaire differences than giving the Powers that Be a good kicking.

Depressing.

MM

Mad Monk

SWP = SCABS

08.07.2003 11:39

your report doesnt surprise me..i mean WTF: they saying now that if you question a muslim whose *standing for election* ie is asking for YOUR vote about women/gays then that makes you an Islamophobe? Rubbish Id ask the same of ANY candidate especially those who live in the fantasy world of religion!
As for Bham SWP..well Workers Power have done SOD all to combat them...all WP do is build the SWP's fronts for them them pretend to be surprised that theres no democracy in order to pick up the odd recruit...
Remember: Steve Godward was witch hunted out of job becuase of his track record as a union militant..his beliefs were old style honest socialist who defended road protesters etc in practical ways (as well as saving people's lifes god damn it)..and the bosses even chucked his KID out of nursery to show how vindictive they are
And NOW on top of all that the Birmingham SWP especially the full timer Simon Berhman, the old sacked fulltimer Ger Francis and the poison that took Steve's place in the SA Lynne Hubbard have victimised him more..making up shit like Steve is an islamophobe, 'racist' etc
No doubt in my mind that the SWP have further persecuted a w/c trade unionist..I call them SCABS and should be TREATED as such..workers power f**k off with your hot air..its time for lefties in birmingham to decide what you going to do? pee your pants or deal with the SCABS in your midst?

Oriel

Appalling

08.07.2003 11:42

...not the SWP - and your characterisation of Marxism is quite wrong: numbers are clearly up, it is clearly a far younger and more mixed crowd - but the comment at the end: a "religion known to be homophobic". Pardon? Unlike Christianity and Judaism, for example? Leviticus in the Bible is quite explicit about what to do with men who "lie with outher men", and it isn't pleasant. But this doesn't for a minute mean that all Christians or Jews are homophobes. Nor do similar passages in the Koran make all Muslims homophobes. Let's be quite clear about this, shall we? If I'm working with someone in the anti-war movement, and they make - for instance - homophobic comments, I'll stand and I'll argue with them. But that's "if". To suggest that we should see a skull-cap or a headscarf and simply assume the worst is racist nonsense. If you'd bothered to produce an honest report of the meeting, you would have mentioned that Lindsey made exactly the same point.

I wouldn't normally bother responding to this sort of bollocks, but I am sick to death of supposed radical "anti-capitalists" regurtiating this anti-Muslim filth on Indymedia; I don't care what supposedly "liberal" gloss you give to it: line up with George Bush and Tony Blair and give Muslims a good kicking, if you want. The rest of us can get on with building an inclusive anti-war and social justice movement that will stand shoulder to shoulder with all the oppressed - regardless of race, religion or sexuality.

gibbon77

.

08.07.2003 12:28

I think if people with prejudices like that (which they've inherited from their cultures and their upbringings) are allowed to join the SWP then many of them will end up absorbing more progressive views from their "comrades".

Loads of people who get into socialism start off quite sexist or homophobic and then end up changing their views. Mark Steel talks about this sort of thing in his book Reasons To Be Cheerful.

Dont Let Them Get Away With This

08.07.2003 13:57

Wake UP people! The SWP have kicked Steve Godward (victimised firefighter) in the teeth whens he's down..but what will WP et al actually DO about it? Carry on saying that the SWP are full of good people just a few bad leaders? Bull. The SWP rank & file *know* exactly whats happening when they call a decent w/c bloke like Steve G a 'racist' (100% not true..for christssake the guy was building the anl!!)...joining in the attack on Steve G can *only* be regarded as SCABBING..especially the Birmingham SWP full timer Simon Behrman and the sacked ex-fulltimer Ger Francis..
If you are disgusted by these raw sewers why not discuss it with them?

simonbehrman@aol.com
07968 551 870

ger_francis@aol.com

07949 028 362

Andy North

Anyone seen the Life of Brian?

08.07.2003 17:23

Please get a grip. Are you the people's front of judea? The Judean people's front? What is wrong with you all. Seem to be losing sight of the real issues here!!

Jules
mail e-mail: jules3be@yahoo.co.uk

Life of Brian?

08.07.2003 17:29

Please do get a grip. Are we not all part of the same movement? The judean people's front oops I meant he people's front of Judea.... Get to the back 'big nose'! Please try to see the big picture and stop wasting precious time and energy.

Jules

can't take critisism.

08.07.2003 18:24

I think possibly the left needs to be able to take abit of critisism. That "islamaphobic" comment was a classic example. Possibly a better responce would be to say that the SWP was against attacks on homosextuals and lesbians and didnt plan to change it's position.
It is almost new labour the way some leftists and marxists give out the same one word responces (tag lines) to difficult questions. i suppose iam sectarian now i have given critisism and if i confessed to saying i was anarchist then that would be petit bourgeosie idealism.
One last thng "shibboleth" is almost a shibboleth in itself the way it seems to be used by the SWP.
peace

Ernest

Ok, so we all hate the SWP...

08.07.2003 23:18

So what are you all going to do about it? Hmm?

Also, the thing with broad based movements is that you are always going to come across people you don't like, that's just the way of things, and one cannot single out Muslims due to homophobia (Christianity also has a bad track record on gay and lesbian rights). What would you rather have, a small, tiny hardcore group of people that never got noticed by anyone, and were considered too crazy by the general public to be involved in, or a large movement that gets everyone talking, including people in government?

Finally, what is a 'shibboleth'?

Thomas J

So Homophobia is a 'minor doctrine'???

09.07.2003 08:26

So one of you m/c w**nkers writes that peoples concerns about the new sexist & homophobic SWP/MAB party is just some squabble over minor points of doctrine? HOW DARE YOU! U WOULD NOT SAY THAT IF RACE WAS THE ISSUE!!!

and it just pees me that everytime someone critiques islam that you bleat :ohh but what about christianity! Prats we all know about christianity and have NO illusions in it BUT you lot have 100% illusions in islam: have you ever lived in an islamic country like I have? Whats that? You havent? No didnt think you had...

By your logic anytime some one critiques the USA you should accuse them of americaphobia on the grounds that they didnt mention France, Uk, iceland or whatever..

SWP explicitly support hate crime

09.07.2003 09:03

WEEKLY WORKER 488, available from Thursday, July 10
(The Weekly Worker is the paper of the Communist Party of Great
Britain)

CRISIS FOR THE SOCIALIST ALLIANCE

Reports from this year's 'Marxism', annual school of the Socialist
Workers Party, indicate that the project for left unity in Britain
faces a serious challenge, with the key component of the SA - the SWP
- intent on unity with forces outside the workers' movement. Full
coverage in the coming issue of the Weekly Worker, but here are some
disturbing quotes from 'Marxism' so far:

"In the SWP we are moving into the new left. The task for the SWP is
do we want to lie back in the ghetto with people who don't want to
relate to the real world or are we prepared to link in with new forces
in society?" - Lindsey German of the SWP at Marxism 2003 this week.

"It’s popular to get up here and say that we want unity. But anyone
who has done this sort of work in the trade union movement or in any
campaign knows that the precondition is that you do not let people who
represent very little stand in your way" - John Rees on the SWPs
'replacement' of Steve Godward, ex-chair of Birmingham Socialist
Alliance

"Some muslims are anti-gay, this is perfectly true, but it is not a
question we pose to christians who join the socialist alliance, is
it??" - Lindsey German defends an electoral alliance with the mosque.

"The prospects of knitting together the left and the unions … many
people in the muslim community and the existing forces in the SA will
not be easy to achieve, but it does stand there now, waiting to
happen… it is a pressing and urgent task in front of us… this is the
spirit of the age" - John Rees outlines his vision of the future of
the Socialist Alliance

"As a result of this [ousting the leadership of Birmingham SA] we had
the largest meeting our movement has held in that city in a
generation, and I was proud to be on that platform alongside George
Galloway representing the SA. That is the future: the rest is the
past" - John Rees lays it on the line for other organisations and
individuals in the SA. You are either on board for new political turn,
or you're out.

Spirit Of Left Beliefs Gone

Aren't we all aprt of the same movement?

09.07.2003 09:35

No, clearly we're not. I want to build a participatory, democratic, dynamic movement. The SWP wants to build a centralised, hierarchical anti-democratic organisation where there is no room for any debate or dissent. If that's what the MOVEMENT they're creating is like, imagine a WORLD ruled by them!

So stop droning on about Islamophobia, you SWPstooges. It's about DEMOCRACY, stupid!

Gerrymander Francis

you all need to chill

09.07.2003 11:14

now goto fopp and for 5 pounds get yourself a copy archie sheep the way ahead: not get some nice smoke: prepare in the manner you like to take: inhale to stoned: now turn up the volume: place onto cd player said cd: now sit back and relax: now thats better: this sounds like the fucking school playground oh should i say stories i have been told as i never had the abuse of school: allright the abuse of evrey over kinda but thats for anothere day: so whomever said what at whereever:

"The enemies of America plot against us... We will act, whenever it is necessary, to protect the lives and the liberty of the American people"

President George W Bush
mer.

meantime comments of the swp are far more important now placed into context i think Love forgiveing rolling up the sleves and getting down to the shit is far more important: have you not woken to understand there is a war on ISLAM:

just as marx / malcome x and others did prodict next year is the 20 year of George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty Four here is one comment from that book:

“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.”-

think about it comrades:

mozaz
.

mozaz
mail e-mail: mozaz@lowtech.org

Mozaz Wake UP!!!

09.07.2003 11:23

Mozaz: so lets let the SWP witchhunt some decent w/c activist huh? after all he's only some white working class bloke..not some m/c white dreadlocked hippy or asian so who gives a f**k right?
As for a 'war on islam'? get REAL! There is NO war on islam! Iraq is not an islamic state and it was bombed, afghanistan was but up to just before 9-11 was in the CIA's pocket, Serbia was bombed and thats a nominally CHRISTIAN country, bombed so muslim kosovans could an independent state..

more from MARXISM

09.07.2003 11:39

reprinted from left discussion list

I think it shows just how ruthless the SWP can be, removing an excellent activist/firefighter from a SA position. To get an idea of this, imagine if they had removed Brian Wilson, who some of you will know: working class activist, Defend Council Hhousing and Stop The Shiregreen Estate Demolotions campaigner, a man of great integrity(we should invite him to the next S/Forum)from his SA candidacy in the elections. Leninism, where the ends justifies the means, is finished, the S/forums are the future join us....

the article

As I remember in Lindsey also insinuated (predictably perhaps)
that those opposing an electoral bloc with the mosques were
Islamaphobic/racist, saying they never opposed the inclusion of
Christians within the SA. This obviously misses the point that nobody
has ever attempted to take the SA into an electoral bloc with and
Christian churches, which is an entirely different kettle of fish to
including socialist Christians/Muslims/Jews or whatever.

Mike O'Carroll

>
> Today at Marxism 2003 I made a point of attending John Rees'
> 'Revolutionaries and the Left: results and prospects', one of the
> larger meetings with about 800 present. The theme of Cde Rees'
intro
> was the need to turn the massive Stop the War (StW) campaign into a
> new political movement that could provide a real alternative to New
> Labour.
>
> I was lucky enough to be called to speak and made the point that
> while the StW campaign was an enormously successful as a united
front,
> where we could march separately and strike together against the
war,
> turning it into a political organisation was something very
different.
> In an election you present an alternative set of politics, a world
> view, to rival political parties. It was very difficult to envisage
an
> alliance with the Birmingham Central Mosque that did not sacrifice
our
> position on Lesbian and Gay rights, on secular education, a women's
> right to choose etc.
>
> I also criticised the SWPs actions in B'ham SA in packing the
meeting
> and removing Steve Godward and the rest of the non SWP exec, and
> replacing them with their own people as a blow to the SA and left
> unity.
>
> I was followed by Lindsey German who predictably denounced me as a
> hopeless sectarian standing in the way of the new movement. She
said
> the SWP certainly stood for lesbian and gay rights but were not
going
> to be led into making this a "shibboleth" to prevent a new alliance.
>
> More interestingly John Rees in his summing up said he made "no
> apologies for pushing aside the chair of Birmingham SA" as he had
> written an article(in the Weekly Worker) that opposed an alliance
with
> "the muslim community and the CPB". This was justification enough
> seemingly. More ominously Rees said that "regrettably 25% of the SA
> conference" held these positions - so watch out if you were one of
> them - you are clearly on the target list.
>
> Rees' remarks led me to have another look at what Steve Godward
> actually said. To quote, "The contacts with the Communist Party of
> Britain and the muslim community were fine - for the Stop the War
> Coalition. We are the Socialist Alliance and I do not think we need
to
> create these blocs." We could debate whether this is right or
wrong,
> it hardly seems the basis for political removal, let alone of the
> whole of the B'ham SA executive.
>

maoamau

Why CAN'T we involve Muslims?

09.07.2003 12:27

Ok:

- Some Muslims are homophobic.
- Some Christians are also homophobic.
- Both religions' holy scriptures have been accused of advocating homophobia.
- However, there are Christians AND Muslims who are NOT homophobic.
- So, why one rule for Christians and another for Muslims?

P.S.: I am NOT a member of the SWP, or any other Trotskyist/'socialist' party.

THERE ARE THE SAME RULES FOR ALL RELIGION U W**KER!

09.07.2003 13:14

Thomas J: where the hell do you get your "facts" from? Can you give me ONE example where 'socialists' have stood for election with Christian religious bodies, like a Church? Whats that? You cant? No didntthink so? There ISNT one rule for christians, one rule for muslims...real socialists would ask questions of ANY religious group before standing in elections with them! You lot know that DAMN well so stop pretending the issue is about Islamophobia and lets start talking about sexism & homophobia...

J Thomas

chill.....

09.07.2003 13:20

chill guys,
socialists can be homophobes, lenninists can be homophobes, lenin WAS a homophobe, and an exraordinary prude in all respects, that is not the issue.

This issue is a) a structural one: the hierarchy V non hierarchical, and b) ideological: there are all the shades from liberal-anarchist-recolutionary communist-socialist etc, not to mention the hoards of middle class outraged letter writers.

These things will work themselves out, the momentum will shift for a while, and there'll be debate, but fruitful debate needs to be rational and realistic, and the focus should be on how much we can accomplish together, and how much we can accomplish as separate autonomous groups. There is no reason to sacfifice individual group identity or to botch together a homogenised package. the more diverse we are in approach and rhetoric, the more people we will carry with us.

NOTE: Shibboleth = shib·bo·leth ( P ) Pronunciation Key (shb-lth, -lth)
n.

A word or pronunciation that distinguishes people of one group or class from those of another.

A word or phrase identified with a particular group or cause; a catchword.
A commonplace saying or idea.
A custom or practice that betrays one as an outsider.

Shib"bo*leth\, n. [Heb. shibb[=o]leth an ear of corn, or a stream, a flood.] 1. A word which was made the criterion by which to distinguish the Ephraimites from the Gileadites. The Ephraimites, not being able to pronounce sh, called the word sibboleth. See --Judges xii.

Without reprieve, adjudged to death, For want of well pronouncing shibboleth. --Milton. Also in an extended sense.

The th, with its twofold value, is . . . the shibboleth of foreigners. --Earle.

2. Hence, the criterion, test, or watchword of a party; a party cry or pet phrase.

n 1: a favorite saying of a sect or political group [syn: motto, slogan, catchword] 2: a manner of speaking that is distinctive of a particular group of people

river, or an ear of corn. The tribes living on the east of Jordan, separated
from their brethren on the west by the deep ravines and the rapid river,
gradually came to adopt peculiar customs, and from mixing largely with the
Moabites, Ishmaelites, and Ammonites to pronounce certain letters in such a
manner as to distinguish them from the other tribes. Thus when the Ephraimites
from the west invaded Gilead, and were defeated by the Gileadites under the
leadership of Jephthah, and tried to escape by the "passages of the Jordan,"
the Gileadites seized the fords and would allow none to pass who could not
pronounce "shibboleth" with a strong aspirate. This the fugitives were unable
to do. They said "sibboleth," as the word was pronounced by the tribes on the
west, and thus they were detected (Judg. 12:1-6). Forty-two thousand were thus
detected, and "Without reprieve, adjudged to death, For want of
well-pronouncing shibboleth."

alexandra kollontai

SWP EAT BABIES

09.07.2003 13:26

God this sectarian crap from workers powert or who ever its hard to tell
is a complete load of bollocks .
Yes i was at marxism for the weekend, far more people than last year and lots more young people.
I collected various papers from various groups marketing there wares there was "workers power", "workers hammer" , workers shoehorns" , "socialist apples " and the international somthing or other made up of three blokes from scunthorpe", amongst others ,all these
had one thing in common all the leaders on the paper spent there time critizising the swp . No mention of bush,bliar or world imperialism no mention of the growing poverty in this country and the rest of the world.
I also was sitting beside a couple of people from one of these preoccupid groups who sat and worked there way through a recent copy of the swp paper looking for points to attack on.
I wonder who you people ever expect to relate to real people in the world and get out of your sad little lifes .You have bugger all to offer an unemployed person like my self .
I enjoyed the meeting and learned a bit about the history of struggles and the growing international movement opposed to the imperialist project and it has lead me to go out and learn more .so for me it was a sucsess .
the points about homophobics being from various areas and not singleing out one from the other i would agree with.

CURTIS STIGERS
mail e-mail: babyeaters@sockmail.com

If people would kindly stop putting words in my mouth...

09.07.2003 13:45

By accusing the SWP of being homophobic, or neglecting the issue of sexism/homophobia just by standing for elections with Muslims, aren't you just saying that Islam equals sexism and homophobia?

And if it was people from another religous group the SWP were standing in electons with, would you guys bat an eyelid?

THE SAME RULES GO EVEN FOR YOUR PRECIOUS ISLAM!

09.07.2003 13:57

Would we bat an eyelid? Er thats what i EXPLICITLY stated: id ask the same questions about sexism & homophobia (do you remember those you gutless sh*ts?) of a SWP/Catholic Party as I am of the SWP/Muslim Party...
Its YOU who have the double standards (ie: lets all trample over women and gays and then squeal 'islamophobe' should anyone with principles take us up on it!)

How on earth can you know...

09.07.2003 14:42

that such a SWP/Muslim party WILL trample on gay/womens rights? It hasn't even been formed yet, and you know NOTHING about what policies they will have regarding homosexuals and women. You just ASSUME that it WILL be homophobic, and it WILL be sexist, because the people involved are Muslims. And what about respecting people's freedom of religion? I think it's fair to say that making hateful assumptions about Muslims counts as Islamaphobia.

Can anyone give an intellegent reply to this, instead of another abusive rant?

U should know

09.07.2003 14:44

you should know that "curtis stigers" isnt an unemployed raw recruit to the SWP but, in reality, a long time SWP member and fulltimer...most posts pro-SWP are similiar to our friend "curtis"...be aware of it!

some people seem to be getting angry

09.07.2003 14:49

well, that posting seems to have provoked a flurry of rants and responses.
I don't know who put it up (And I am in WP) but I do know that the basic points are correct.

1. Uniting with muslims/christians/jews etc etc on united action around a common issue (opposing the war for instance), that is fine.

2. Uniting with muslims/christians etc etc around political programme and DROPPING key demands (gay rights, womens rights and so forth) in order to keep the electoral party going, that is called a popular front. Comrade Stalin came up wth the idea in the 30's you may recall, and we all know what happened to Spain, France and China as a result.

We oppose the popular front, Whether it be with christians, lib dems, or whoever. The reason why we oppose this party for peace and justice is because it would be a disaster for the british working class. The SWP are in effect asking the working class in the UK to vote for a political party that is NOT based on socialist demands, that it does NOT fight for independent working class action and that is in many ways going to fudge the issue of gay/womens rights. The socialist alliance may have had it problems but at least it was socialist and argued for independent woking class action.
The reason we oppose it, for all you whingers who claim it is just ultra-left sects battling it out for prolier-than-thou points, is because we politically disagree with it, sorry about that. One minute you are saying we do nothing to battle the SWPs opportunism then when we do we are just a little whinging sect, MAKE UP YOUR MINDS.

simon
Homepage: http://www.workerspower.com

Thank you Simon

09.07.2003 15:11

I'm actually (despite my previous comments) not too keen on this SWP-Muslim party idea. I am however concerned that people have taken an "Islam = sexism and homophobia" attitude when crticising this, and I don't think thats on. However, I do get the point about the SWP distorting their principles in the name of gaining popularity. But I see nothing wrong with groups, political or otherwise, working with moderate Muslims who are NOT homophobic or sexist, and are not going to undermine the principles of that group.

However, I get this feeling the SWP are a farily distorted group as it is...

Do i know andy north

09.07.2003 15:18

ANDY NORTH SAYS HE KNOWS ME ,HE CALLS ME A SWP FULLTIMER ? AND NOT A NOVICE ,
WELL LETS SEE I WILL TALK ABOUT MYSELF I AM UNEMPLOYED (SIX MONTHS NOW) LIVING IN AUCHTERMUCHTY FIFE ,JOINED THE SSP (SCOTTISH SOCIALISTS LAST YEAR AROUND MARCH )THEN LATER
JOINED THE SWP AFTER LAST YEARS MARXISM SO HAVE BEEN A MEMBER FOR ONE YEAR(maybe i am not a novice but am certainly not what you would call an expert) .
As i understand it the swp are a platform of the ssp and have one full time organiser in scotland i belive his name is kier, that aint me couldnt do much organising living in a rural village with no car and a crap bus servivce, (but then again i could just be lying as Mr North puts forward).
But hay mr north might say if you are unemployed how do you have access to a computer,the poor shouldnt have access to technology well easy its not mine.
still this wouldnt be enough for the paranoid mind of mr north (who i dont remember meeting but claims to knows me well) .
Mr North needs to get out of his paranoid world and except what people say at face value rather than looking for plots and schemes but the only way i could convince him would be to show him my birth certificate passport etc ,but then he would say they were fake.

maybe a blood test or a dna sample would work.

curtis stiegers

all round at mine

09.07.2003 15:29

oh people just chill did you not know i dislike not only the swp the whole damm left: no consider the debate we had last we at the social forum metting: now you ask for a revolution oh for? fucks sake trust you lot? have you not understood why the working class have no time for you? so fuck who said what and whatever we are all humans: oh i forgott no we are not the working class are nothing but cannon fodder for factory and batlefield: as the people of iraq still have no water no electricity colra running writh and you are telling me this is not a war upon islam: go back to bed mozaz:

mozaz

mozaz
mail e-mail: markmozazwallis@lowtech.org

Thank you moazz

09.07.2003 15:36

Thanks for highlighting the sectarian ,paranoid world of the left
in this country who spend there time squablling over nothing ,when there
is far more to be discused and changed.

s clarke

Flogging a dead horse...

09.07.2003 15:52

And STILL the 'Islamophobic' smears come. How tedious.

FACT: no one on the left in Brum denies the importance of working with minority communities, be they Muslim or otherwise.
FACT: the SWP propose an alliance with IMAMS, who no more represent the interests and experiences of the Muslim working class than the Catholic Priesthood does for the Irish w/c.
FACT: so desperate is the SWP to take on the agenda of the imams that they included an atheist Asian in the "night of the long knives" last Tuesday. Wouldn't want to look too close to a filthy apostate, would we?
FACT: the whole new "project" has been stitched up behind closed doors, with no attempt at democratic participation. Galloway brushed aside this minor concern with the glib comment "trust leadership".
FACT: once this new project goes tits up, as it undoubtedly will once most of the young activists the SWP's cynically exploiting in its opportunist bid for power by all means necessary realise they're being abused, the SWPsters will just move on to some other lame initiative, leaving a whole new generation of people entirely alienated and disenchanted by "the left".
FACT: Steve Godward represents working class unity, solidarity and honesty. How revealing that John Rees should describe that as "very little". To you perhaps, Johnny boy.

festina lente

09.07.2003 16:06

oh shush, all of you.

get together and sort it all out over a good meal.

it's not that hard.

and when oh when will all this bitchin' stop?

do something, or don't but talk talk talk in "isms"
and you'll achive nothing.

Thats what i always told Vlad.

Yours in exasperated solidarity-

Mme Krupskaya

krupskaya

Faker

09.07.2003 16:07

Er c'mon youve been rumbled now go quietly...you aint fooling non one with your 'im an unemployed honest geezer' more!

Facts are that 99% of you (gerrymander francis excepted) hide behind this 'any1 who disagreess with the swp r islamophobic' rubbish

sad little man

09.07.2003 16:46

What a sad little man you are 99% fact were you the person who
counted the votes in saddams last election ?
Not much point talking with someone who refuses to accept what someone
says about there own lives as this is an open forum espicalliy if they disagree
with you (a tendancy to control freakery i presume).
Your utter hatred of the swp weakens your ability to argue your point.
Move on man ,move on before your hatred eats you .
I would hate for you to end up with a mental illness.
See i do care for you even if you have no trust of me.

LibDems - nothing wrong?!

09.07.2003 17:34

What utter rubbish from a SWP hack.

How can you say that there's nothing wrong with the Lib Dems being in the StWC? The Lib Dems are the most pro-occupation party there is at present - because they think 'our' troops have a job to do! What a change from when they opposed it, unless of course the UN legitimised it.

The SWP is DEFINITELY moving to the right, and in a big way. If they can think that imperialist, ethnocentric, pro-capitalist, pro-parliament scum bags have anything to do with stopping wars then their rhetoric is morphing into something even more hideous too.

The Lib Dems have nothing to do with stopping wars, just legitimising them once they've occurred.

ZeroZero

how do you stop them

09.07.2003 18:35

and how are supposed to stop the lib dems taking part in a anti war group?
expell them from the group ? will not other non left groups follow like the
churches etc Hey a group just make up of the sectarian left just arguing amongst themselves while the rest of us get on and do something.I even know there were a few tories involved in the anti war campaigns should the stw group vet who wants to get involved .Everyone knows the record of the likes of old alcoholic kennedy and his troops
and i trust people to make up there own minds on the libs war stance ,thats why some of there speakers were only politly recived at any demo they were on.
But hey we can hand out leaflets at the next demo why we are opposed to being on this demo.or can put big blokes at the start to pull out people we dont like and give them a good kicking.
Be sensible the left does not have a right to control the anti war movement but has a right to put forward its arguments in it and is winning it .This anti war movement is more important than petty squabbling.

jari

Hold everything

09.07.2003 18:39

curtis and others dont worry about Andy north he is a copper
who likes to stir up trouble and create divisions.

chris smart
mail e-mail: csmart19@btopenworld.com

I were Curtis Stigers....

09.07.2003 23:50

I'd think LONG and HARD before I started bringing metaphors of dodgy electoral practices into THIS particular argument! LOL!

and chris smart must be a silly wee boy...

09.07.2003 23:57

...if he thinks Andy North (a pen name, methinks!) has to go out of his way to "stir up divisions". The poisonous, socially inadequate reptiles who make up the SWP manage to do that QUITE well enough without Andy's help. Or mine.

You really are scraping the bottle of the barrel, Chris.

Which is only to be expected, given the company you keep.

keeping company

10.07.2003 07:22

The company i keep at least isnt a bunch of masons
or maybe you are telling the truth and are angry about
your lack of friends aye.you seem to be getting a bit threatning
will i expect you at my door with a cricket bat?
Young boy i am old enough to be your great grand son.
It isnt hard to get your true hatred out .

chris smart

two socialists in a room

10.07.2003 07:37

HE HE HE
YOU PUT TWO SOCIALISTS IN A ROOM WHAT DO YOU GET?
TOTAL HATE AND DISUNITY .
ITS GREAT MAKES ME MORE MONEY .
You lot couldnt organize a raffle .
workers bretrayed by you who say they speak for them
keep up the good work

harold the FACTORY owner

SWP & SA

10.07.2003 09:04

Its painfully obvious that the SWP are seeking to remould the SA into this SWP/MAB party..
What will happen in Birmingham will be: all the muslim/hindu/sikh tension will resurface..and the BNP will be flooded with new recruits...its madness anywhere to call upon people to vote along ethnic lines like this SWP/MAB thing will be doing especially in a working class city like Birmingham ( except the sneering m/c white "drop-outs" who live in Moseley, spout PC rubbish and patronise black people by trying to speak like ali g or something & rich people in Harbourne) where white workers who dont support sharia law will be told that they are 'racist' & 'islamophobic'...in deprived white working class areas like Northfield that will go down like a bucket of cold baby sick..especially when the SWP regards such people as 'scum from the estates' (quote from Anl furher Julie Waterstone)
Sooner or later the thug element of the SWP,(eg disgraced ex fulltimer Ger Francis & current fulltimer Simon Behrman) will try that on real workers as opposed to the spineless bham left..mind you Ger only squares up to small women..
The rest of the Left & all those who arent Trots but who are antisexist & antihomophobic *must* take the lead in opposing the SWP/MAB alliance..if you dont the BNP will!

gerk francis

To clear some stuff up.....

10.07.2003 10:47

I was the person who originally put this up on U75. If Marxism was bigger and more diverse this year then I'm genuinely pleased. It wasn't my impression, but I'm glad if I'm wrong.

As Simon said this is about a real political difference, not point scoring.

For all you people who were outraged about calling Islam a homphobic religion, I was, in fact talking about Christianity (read the post again). So for those who have suggested I have picked out Islam in a racist and Islamophobic way it'd be good to have an apology....

My point is that all the major religions are INSTITUTIONALLY homophobic. This, of course, doesn't mean that everyone in the religion is homophobic, where did I say that? It's a cheap way of twisting up what I'm saying.

However saying that gay and lesbian rights shouldn't be a "shibboleth" to working with other secions of society is disgusting. Imagaine someone had said this about racism or sexism?

Sorry but it appears the SWP are dropping gay and lesbian rights to get an electoral pact with religious forces (it wouldn't matter what religion it was). This is popular frontism and an appalling position for a "revolutionary" organisation to take.

......

10.07.2003 10:59

PS No I wouldn't want the platform speakers to attack each other (alhtough nothing wrong with honest criticism). Also it's nice if people congratulate each other. I just thought two standing ovations for George Galloway was over the top, as were references to enjoying an Oscar ceremony. Sorry but I have unconditionally supported Galloway and think he's done some great stuff. Indeed when he called for victory to Iran in the event of a war I thought it was brilliant. However I disagree with much of his politics (as do the SWP) and I do think he's stance is Stalinist (look back on his past positions and record). I thought there was far too much idiolisation of Galloway in the meetings. Does that mean I want bun fights and back stabbing, of course not?

I think people on here need to chill out.....

And I'll repeat that in your flurrly to get out pre-prepared answers about attacking Islam (and while this is true of many sections of society it's certainly not true of me or Workers Power) you actually got what I was saying totally wrong.....

just who is posting here?

10.07.2003 11:17

'The rest of the Left & all those who arent Trots but who are antisexist & antihomophobic *must* take the lead in opposing the SWP/MAB alliance..if you dont the BNP will!'

Hmm.. I'll leave aside the kurious koncept of the BNP defending gay rights.. have you seen their 'Pinko Tories Love Homosexuals' leaflets?

But I do wonder; who might think it worth spending such effort pouring out bile against the ANL, SWP and Muslims, constantly rattling on about 'liberals and leftists' and the 'white working class', and repeatedly namechecking and bigging up the BNP? Answers on a postcard please...

[what betting next post will accuse me of being SWP stooge, or perhaps an Imam ;-) ]

kurious

Anti-communists

10.07.2003 12:27

It is interesting to see that the Socialist Workers Party does not believe that gay rights are very important when it comes to their Stop the War Coalition (which through its moderation miserably failed to stop the war) but when it comes to Cuba which is taking a real stand against imperialism they viciously attack it with lies about its government being homophobic. The SWP misleaders have actually ensured many of their members believe that there are prison camps for gays in Cuba because of their hatred of communism, but then they are prepared to dismiss gay rights in Britain. I think it should be remembered that the SWP supported the fundamentalist, anti-communist, anti-woman mojahedin against the socialist government of Afghanistan. Out of that came the Taliban.

Before people start whinging about the SWP being criticised, because for the SWP any criticism by anyone else is "sectarian", if a party behaves in this sort of way it must be criticised.

quoi?

10.07.2003 12:54

'the socialist government of Afghanistan'??

That would be the 'socialist' government that were so popular with the workers they needed Russian tanks and assault helicopters and ultimately full-scale invasion and occupation by the Red Army to keep them in power?

hack

At the end of the day, so f'n what?

10.07.2003 13:20

The SWP are building a popular front with this SWP/Muslim alliance (which I must say we all know little to nothing about). By the way I still don't understand why this party MUST be sexist and homophobic, though I can understand the increase in tension between other ethnic groups as they find themselves being abandoned by SWP (so what else is new?)

Business as usual for the SWP, they are past masters of bandwagon jumping.

As for opposing this popular front, surely it's up to the members of the SWP (OK you can all slag me off all you want as I am not a member) to put pressure on the leadership to think twice about this foolish venture.

And at the end of the day, just cause they are forming this new party, it DOESN'T MEAN WE ALL HAVE TO VOTE FOR IT! If the real socialists feel so strongly about this, can't they stand in elections with a viable alternative?

SWP/MAB Lies

10.07.2003 13:25

First off:
I think what the earlier poster was saying was that if the Left & democrats dont oppose the SWP/MAB/NSDAP election attempt to racialise politics and to ram sharia law down peoples throats then it will be the BNP that pose as defenders of democracy

Second: er there WAS a socialist revolution in Afghanistan..the 'Russians' DIDNT invade but were asked in by the Afghans because of the CIA & Muslim attempt to smash women & human rights back into the stone age..this is FACT people!

..no doubt you m/c white dreadlocked saps will say that those Afghans that fought to defend THEIR rights against the cutthroat islamic fascists were 'islamophobic'..

Thirdly: no one has 'bigged' up the BNP..but if any of you actually venture into a w/c area (and isnt it funny that those who moan about islamophobia amongst white secularists are white middle class ageing hippies who believe you me do NOT live in deprived areas!) you'd know that parachuting in there to arrogantly slap workers in their faces for the 'insolence' of not voting SWP/MAB/Phalangist will ONLY create a backlash: dont say I have warned you!

Kurious Oranj/curtis stiegers/andy north & Harlequin

Chris Smart

10.07.2003 13:34

Andy mate dont listen to Chris Smart: he likes to stir the pudding big time, he's actually a long time SWP member & prospective full timer..& yes you were right about 'Curtis Steiger' being false too..

Nigel Truth

SWP etc

10.07.2003 13:39

Kurious you would love to a moslem yes? Yet you are a white well off drop out whose pathectic search for identity would be funny if it didnt entail you supporting sexism & homophobia
'Thomas J': you say why would the Muslim/SWP Party be sexist & homophobic? What platform do you think MAB will stand on? Labour Party Manifesto circa 1983 or the 'glorious' Koran?

D'jinn

SWP...

10.07.2003 14:42

hear o muslims
join the glorious Socialist Worker's Party!
aiee
Praise
hey Macarenna

Suid

And it just gets more and more desperate....

10.07.2003 15:31

Good old kurious. First we were told that anyone critical of the SWP's tendency to trample over every person and every principle that might stand in the way of its lust for power was 'sectarian'. Then they were 'Islamophobic'.

But now, it seems, they're fascists!

No wonder you planks are scared of debate, if THAT's the best you can do!

Way Ahead

10.07.2003 15:56

I agree with Gerrymander Francis..but the question is what to do now? The Socialist Alliance is now dead to being a forum for progressive change and yet a smaller SA (sans SWP) doesnt seem likely either.
The first thing that has to be done is to surgically remove the disease that is the Birmingham SWP..we must no longer respond to their thug behaviour with a motion here a motion there...

Gerk Francis

new party

10.07.2003 17:13

It is not that the party will be homphobic but that the new party will not fight for gay and womens rights! And aslso many elements within the party will be reactionary. It is clear that this new party will not campaign on these two issues, how can it? On the question of abortion it will be silent, on the question of gay rights in will be silent on the question of secular schools it will be silent and so on. I am bisexual and the SWP is now asking me to vote for a party that contains forces within it that are hostile to my sexuality!

The goal is not to untie with the leaders of the muslim community around an anti war ticket, but to divide the muslim community along class lines, win the workers to socialism and isolate and break the power of ther imams. That is the goal of socialism, not ot drop socialism in order to win votes. And two things to bear in mind, the Imams were the ones who ordered the brave young asians to turn themselves in after bradford, burnley and Oldham, it was the Imams who betrayed their own communities to the courts. These are the people the SWP are courting. It is true to say we don't know what programme the party will adopt, but we can take an informed guess!

And secondly the SWP throughout the 80's and early ninties rejected parliamentary activity (After their disasterous 'turn'in the 70's). This is the same party that has turned to electoral cretinism. We must reject it, fight for a new revolutionary workers party and seek to win mulsim workers to a socialist agenda.

chris smart and curtis stiegers

10.07.2003 18:54

andy north dont belive nigel truth these two people are not longtime members
of the swp they are in fact members of the CWI i know them well they both live
in madchester. beware of false hoods.
The speakers are right the swp is an islamic terrorist group and are plotting
to overthrow bliar and co and must be stopped call interpol or james bond.

bob terwiliker

To Bob Terwiliker...

11.07.2003 00:37

Mate, you WISH the SWP was an Islamic terror group, but the truth is they're nowhere near that dynamic or exciting.

As we all saw by the way they contrived to squash ANYTHING resembling direct action or confrontation with the state, after the Iraq "war" broke out.

Chickenshit motherfuckers the lot of them. And now they think they lead the movement! Frankly, my cock and balls they do!

We don't hate them cos they're scary: we hate them because they're cunts!

Simon Behrman

To simon behrman

11.07.2003 07:52

Are you a super hero what is a behrman sounds like a creature
from a japanise monster movie.
I dont wish anything for the swp i would use my three wishes on somthing else.
I take it since you have a hatred of cunts that you also do not like females as
is a slang word for female anatomy.
It is sad that you have to go around promoting what you hate rather than like .
are you a nazi ? a stalinist, racist homophobe what ?.Instead of telling the readers of indymedia what you
hate how about putting down what you like .
It will in the long run make you a happier nicer man and people will want to stop and talk to you in a positive manner .
I hope my advice can help.

bob tiwiliger

tell me what i think

11.07.2003 08:00

Ive noticed on this a lot of people are puting forward what they say
they know other contributers think and who they are why? cant peoples words
be trusted ? you curtis, bob, simon , and andy amongst others should hold your
heads is shame .

debbie doesdallas

SWP/MAB

11.07.2003 09:06

Its obvious that there is a heirarchy of oppression on the left with racism (and 'islamophobia') at number 1, 2,3,4 etc and sexism & homophobia no where to be found.
The SWP/MAB party nust be oppossed by all those who are against sexism & homophobia..,maybe activists in Birmingham should organise a campaign against the SWP/Islamonazis...

Jason

SWP

11.07.2003 11:21

Already there has been suggestions of a march on the mosques should they stand in the elections..not from the BNP but from antisexist & antihomophobic dissenting Leftwingers..it would be a sight..after long years of the PC m/c Left sh*ting on white workers and now in bed with islamonazis..after all the slaps in the face of workers being told that they are genetically racist by white m/c rich kids..at last they would feel the Class Hate..the tidal wave of Primordial Class War to sweep away all the scum: the SWP, the islamonazis, the PC brigade..i see it now the Bristol Road full of the Silent Majority thousands upon thousands of workers vowing by the Blood of their Class that this battle of Cable Street (this time against the SWP & MAB) will complete what the Bolsheviks could only have dreamed of in 1917..

Ian Dondley

Bob Tiwiliger, the SWP and the "C" word

11.07.2003 23:52

Bob mate- don't have a cow. Language is complicated. You reckon I hate women, you're talking out of your arse.

As a wise woman of my acquaintance recently noted, the fact that she HAS a cunt does not MAKE HER ONE.

Similarly, Bob, I assume you have a prick though that doesn't necessarily mean that you ARE a pr...actually, come to think of it, that's a bad example in your case!

typical

13.07.2003 16:28

more disgusting than the antics of th eleft is teh way it debates. Cheap name calling, pathetic jibes and moronic insults dominate what is an important debate. Christ, if the future of the working class is in our hands we are all fucked!

can't people engage with the arguments rather than just digging up long standing feuds that wer estaretd on some webboard years ago, those people on here who don't like each other why don't you GET A ROOM! and leave the politics to those of us with the guts to slog it out without reducing it to 'you are a cunt' and 'no you are a prick'

SWP tricks

19.07.2003 13:44

Simon is right that the "peace n justice" party will do next to nothing on the key issues that he pointed out. But my main point is that the SWP have clearly over-stated their importance again. There globalise resistance has claimed a victory on the WEF not going to ireland and they are claiming victory over StW and all that as well.
Lets get this straight the SWP's tactics do not work the labour party has moved to the right despite the SWP walking form one lamp post to another and asking nicely for a better welfare state. The SA (the SWP's little brother) won next to no wards in the local elections and is now going to rely on a cleric saying to his obeying subjects "vote SA" for them to win anymore. This is damaging for the muslim community and for the socialist/homosextuals/women and all the rest of the people that the koran disaproves of having any rights. It would be just the same if they allied with any religious group.
These policies have kept the irish communitis apart for hundreds of years because instead of voting for someone that will get you more freedoms, rights and services they support/vote for who their priest says.
I personally think that the SWP leadership deserve to be called any name under the sun because they are liars and have a policy of hijacking any movement when it starts making inroads into corruption and big buissness and all that. Also they are strictly oppose to any action not done by their groups. They belive they are the resistance and as we have seen at first hand with the sly underhand tactics of the SWP with them attempting to destroy the sheffield social forum before it has even declared itself the sheffield social forum we cannot trust them.
peace

Smash the imaginary dictatorship we have above our headz...

22.07.2003 15:59

The SWP must be running this place, or the movement at least, judging by the trillions of comments attached to this 'ere article.

All I want to say is: why worry? If we are living under the dictatorship of the all prevailing party then, surely comrades, just like Man Utd and Maccy D's.. what becomes too big swallows itself up eventually becoming nothing.

Wait 4 it to happen, comrades!

Patience!!

fad bonanza

how does someone become a populist?

07.08.2003 07:43

so how does someone become a populist?
answer: put a load of anti-SWP messages in your propaganda....
i know they piss us off but lets calm down shall we and larf at them.

populist

In Cliff's own words

31.10.2003 19:01

"We would have done no favours to women, blacks, gays or lesbians if the party had liquidated itself into these movements. There are two common ways of approaching movements or campaigns independent of the organisation. One is to have nothing to do with them because they do not accept the full revolutionary programme and the centrality of the working class. The other is to act as cheer leaders, saying 'Hooray!' to everything they do."

Tony Cliff, A World to Win, p. 146.

Disgruntled SWP member

IMCs